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The purchasing public are not your Beta testers Bethesda

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Showing 1-25 of 41 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 8 Dec 2011, 12:48:42 GMT
Last edited by the author on 8 Dec 2011, 15:43:30 GMT
Denton says:
Skyrim is one of the best games ever made, it's just that it doesn't work. All the people saying you haven't had problems...I guarantee you will and then you'll understand and be just as annoyed as everyone else. I got about 160hrs in, level 60 and had to give up it got that bad. It is a problem that gets progressively worse (starting around 30-80hrs) until it drops to 1 frame every few seconds, or the slideshow effect as it is becomming known. After the most recent patch you can still get 30mins relatively uneffected gameplay but then you have to reset.

The purchasing public are not your Beta testers Bethesda!

The load times also increase SIGNIFICANTLY to 1-3 minutes. In a game where you need to travel to locations, then open a door, then exit through the same door to again fast travel to a destination, only to have to open another door to start the quest. This is certainly game crippling. You will spend a lot of time frustrated. After a brief period of frustration (which you push through because the game is amazing) it breaks down to a frame every ten seconds and is unplayable. I love the term coined by one reviewer --- doesn't Q'Whiterun'

I'm sorry to all who don't believe it will happen to them. It's wishful thinking, but it will.

It respresents the reason the public hate banks and big business in general, because they don't care and only want our money at any cost.

It's shortermist management by money hungry CEO's who want their slice so they can work 5 years and retire. The future of you or the company doesn't seem to concern them.

I guarantee the developers and designers who lovingly crafted the world of Tamriel wanted to fix it, but idiot management needed their release date target and fat Christmas bonus, which they'll receive no matter what happens. That's the way the world works today.

Massive deception is rewarded with massive cash sums. So kids, be as deceitful and bad as you can because you'll go a hell of a lot further than people with functioning sense of morality. Ahhh...good ol' capitalism with its just crusade to bring happiness and prosperity to all an...what's that? it does the opposite of that you say?...but our civilization is...is built on the concept...we...we we've destroyed half the world enforcing it on other nations and now you tell me its current state is corrupting our society to dangerous levels. Well thanks for the newsflash Captain hindsight. Don't worry though...It's Christmas...we can all buy stuff to make it better....Aaahhhhh

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2011, 10:58:45 GMT
Ken says:
I am not defending Bethesda in anyway as releasing such a buggy game is unforgivable, but have you not considered that getting 160+hrs of gameplay out of that 1 game is something that should be applauded?
Considering most games that offer a campaign/story mode only last between 5-15hrs, 160+ is definately not something to be scoffed at, so i would say you got your moneys worth mate.

Posted on 9 Dec 2011, 11:41:38 GMT
Denton says:
Most of the time was spent staring at loading screens and forcing myself to play through horrible lags. I'm a bit obsessive compulsive that way and can't stop something I've started. Even for me it got so bad I had to trade it in for £24 in Tesco without finishing it, and that's saying something because I can put up with a lot.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2011, 12:18:27 GMT
Last edited by the author on 9 Dec 2011, 12:20:45 GMT
Ken says:
Not hating or anything, but if you traded it in then i feel sorry for you. Like i said, im not making excuses for Bethesda, but all you had to do was wait till they patch the lag issues and you would have been able to play on.
Okay it may be sometime after the new year when this happens, but if my savefile becomes unplayable im certainly not going to trade it in. I'll just play something else till it gets fixed because the game itself is just too good not to play all the way through. Then again if i had pumped 160+ into a game i might seeing as with that amount of time im guessing most of the game content would have been covered.

Even if you count half that 160+ time as "wasted" time, you are still looking at a game that gave you 80+ hrs and you still didnt complete. Regardless of the reasons why, personally, if i got that amount of time out of a game i wouldnt be complaining.

Posted on 9 Dec 2011, 14:16:59 GMT
Last edited by the author on 9 Dec 2011, 14:19:05 GMT
Denton says:
You wait and you'll see. It's frustrating and heartbreaking.

I agree, it's an amazing game but not many people will have the patience I have and Bethesda will not be able to fix the problem. They failed with Fallout 3 and FNV. Unless they've enlisted the help of a magic fairy it's not going to happen.

You should have a look at the number of 1 star reviews on Amazon.com. People are furious and they have a right to be. There's even talk of a class action lawsuit against Bethesda for knowingly releasing a faulty product. Also, the packaging does not state you need an internet connection to fix the game because it doesn't work yet. Some people can't afford the internet @ a cost of £35+ a month with the obligatory BT line rental charge. This is misleading and I suspect, Illegal.

I'm all for it. Bethesda needs a serious management shakeup because I'm so sure the designers who lovingly crafted such a rich and beautiful game are heartbroken by all the negative reviews and press. They probably want the problem fiixed as much as anyone else. Bethesda definitely knew the product was faulty, proven by the fact they only gave reviewers early access to PC and XBox versions of the game.

It's criminal and deserves to be punished. Just because I played 160hrs doesn't excuse a faulty product. If your car broke down every 2 miles and you sold it after 160 miles because you were infuriated, the argument that you managed to drive 160 miles is not valid.

And yeah, I did complete most of the game but there are loads of quests still available. I'd go as far as to say you could probably play for 250hrs before doing everything. In general I can't be bothered with games anymore as so many of them are short and samey. This game represents the Phantom Menace of the gaming world. So much potential but such a let down in the end, and bizzarely, it's not the fault of the game.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2011, 14:32:23 GMT
Last edited by the author on 9 Dec 2011, 14:47:32 GMT
Ken says:
Okay first of all i would say i am a fair bit in 50+hrs (again - is more that what most games offer) and i do get a bit of lag when i first enter a new town, but it clears itself up after a few seconds, so im begining to think my game wont get any worse.

"Ahh but wait till you get to 70 or 80+hrs then it will become unplayable" i hear you say. Well yknow what? people said it would become unplayable at 30+hrs i passed that with minimal issues, then i heard people say once you reach 40+hrs the problems start - again, no big problems. So your agument of "wait and see" just doesnt cut it for me. I will play on and i will let you know of my progress, but right now i am enjoying the game immensely.

As for all those 1 star reviews, i think are uncalled for as many people say the game is great and just because there are a few bugs they mark everything down to 1 star.

Also you mentioned about Bethesda not mentioning internet connection. Well that is another unfair comment as most games require internet for DLC or other things and they dont mention internet connection either.

Say all you want mate, and i do symathise with you up to a point, but at 160+hrs playtime within a month of the game being released i think you are just scaremongering because apart from a bit of lag my game is fine and im still enjoying it alot.
But to use your car analogy, thats like buying a brand new car running up 160,000 miles within a month and wondering why it breaks down. Most people dont run up the milage of their cars that fast that much before they sell it and move on which is what youve done. You got your moneys worth, you sold the game. Move on and dont buy another Bethesda game again if you really hated the experience that much.

But to plough in 160+ hrs id go out on a limb to say you enjoyed the game even just a little bit, which is even more unjust how you gave this game a 1 star.

Posted on 9 Dec 2011, 14:48:00 GMT
Last edited by the author on 9 Dec 2011, 14:48:25 GMT
Denton says:
Yes, I do enjoy the game, but I didin't enjoy the amount of frustration it caused. I think I got 90hrs (9.5mb ish size save file) in before it really started playing silly buggers. It's just at the point where you're in love with it that it turns around a sleeps with another bloke.

Also, DLC is additional content not required to play the game, it's a choice add on. If it was required then the packaging would need to state the fact otherwise it's misleading product sale.

I'm not having a go. I'm glad you enjoy the game, I did too and nearly wrote a 5 star review. If I had done that I'd have deleted it by now and re-written it. I'm not scaremongering, I just believe that people have a right to know and that Bethesda have done this one too many times for it to be acceptable. I'm not alone here and there is mounting anger.

Bethesda are the best game making company out there (WET excluded). If I buy a film, the best film ever, and I watch half of it before discovering the end is scratched, jumpy and almost unwatchable,yeah, I'm going to be annoyed. Especially if I'll never get to enjoy the end of the film because it's a universal problem. Another Analogy I know.

*sigh* I wish it worked and don't mean to sully your experience

Posted on 9 Dec 2011, 15:17:54 GMT
Ken says:
I feel your pain mate i really do.

But when the game played okay (before the lag etc) you enjoyed the game? If you DID get at least some enjoyment out of it why give it 1 star? To me a 1 star is a game with crap graphics, crap gameplay and doesnt work at all. But that isnt the case here is it? It did give you some enjoyment out of those 160+ hours didnt it?

(Again im not hating on you or anything) but its people like you that mark an EXCELLENT game zero because of bugs when its is playable up to a point - for you it was playable up to 160+hrs.

Anyway regardless, I will definately come back after ive clocked a few more hours in and let you know how i get on. But i really think you should not have sold the game as future patches may fix your issues and you probably could have got many more hours out of the game.

Posted on 9 Dec 2011, 15:29:56 GMT
Last edited by the author on 11 Dec 2011, 19:00:21 GMT
Denton says:
I sold it for £24 and it's already at £22 on amazon so I may make money.

If they release a fixed version or a Game of the Year version that works, I'll consider coming back, but I think Bethesda need to learn a hard lesson. I hope they get sued by the gaming standard commission and Sony. The brilliantly gifted designers will always have their talent and can invest their efforts elsewhere. Rockstar never release broken games and their games are just as complex and large as The Elder Scrolls, so it can be done and is unnaceptable when a company releases a faulty product. Like I said, I'm a bit obsessive compulsive so HAD to finish it even though I wasn't having all that much fun. Most people won't have the perseverence I had and they shouldn't have to.

I look forward to your feedback when you're further in.

Posted on 9 Dec 2011, 22:16:07 GMT
K. Wong, I'd have to strongly disagree. If any game, and I mean ANY game, no matter how good in parts, has game-breaking issues, then it definitely deserves the lowest rating possible in my book. The same issue arose with Mass Effect 2 on the PS3, with people having their save files becoming corrupted/disappearing. This is simply unacceptable. Are we in such a society that will just shrug our shoulders when things break, as technology seems to all over the place now?

Skyrim is a game that is meant to be limitless, it is meant to be explored over hundreds of hours. I'm fairly certin it's not meant to be a tortuous experience whereby you may, or may not, watch lag get worse and worse until it is apallingly difficult to play. You say a 1 star game would have crap graphics, gameplay, etc. Well, Skyrim in slideshow mode would quality as all those - the gameplay would be infuriating and presumably combat would be pot luck, and a framerate of 1/second or worse can hardly constitute good graphics.

If the game works for you then I'm happy for you, you're the lucky one. But I for one would, and I would hope more people will stay away from this game until the game-breaking issues are resolved. I know if I bought the game now I'd enjoy the time playing it significantly less with the threat of lag rearing its ugly head looming over me.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2011, 23:56:51 GMT
Last edited by the author on 10 Dec 2011, 00:14:00 GMT
Ken says:
There are clearly 2 sides of the argument here that keep going round in circles and i note that im having to reiterate my point more than once.

First of all my game isnt without issues, but my issues arent gamebreaking (yet). So please dont patronise me with "your the lucky one" I know people have issues, i have experienced them myself but not to the extend other have, understand?

Secondly, regardless of whether the game is meant to be limitless or not, my point was if your getting 160+ hrs of gameplay out of it before it becomes unplayable then i would say thats pretty good value for money, regardless of the reasons Denton stopped playing.

Thirdly, your saying if someone enjoys the excellent gameplay for say 100+hrs then the game becomes unplayable theyre justified in giving the game a 1 star? so all those 100+hrs means nothing because it broke down in the end??

Again - i will repeat myself one more time. I do think releasing a game that is so buggy is unacceptable and customers are entitled to be angry, but a different point of view is in Dentons case if he got 160+hrs out of it, thats better bang for your buck than most other games out right now.

Finally, theres no way you cant accept that there are many people that arent experiencing problems with their game and just because a vocal number of people who are having problems shout louder, then people shouldnt buy the game? Do you know FOR SURE that the game will have problems for someone who buys it?? NO you dont. If you say you do then thats BS because NO ONE has definitive statistics on the failure rate and gamebreaking lag rate out of the 3.5+mil people who bought the game.
You have a fair idea it MIGHT have a gamebreaking problem but you cant comment for everyone when youve only played 1 copy of the game i.e. yours.

In the same vein i just comment on my own experience. 57+hrs so far Laggy when i fast travel to cities, but clears up in a few seconds and no game freezes. Like i said, i will report back on how i get on and if my game gets worse. But my humble opinion is that after 160+ hrs of gameplay to mark the game 1 star is definately not fair.

You can argue back, but ive made my stance and argument perfectly clear.

Posted on 10 Dec 2011, 03:19:39 GMT
Denton says:
I gave it 1 star after 80hrs. That's the point most people would have quit playing. This thread is at least a week after my review.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2011, 07:19:24 GMT
Ken says:
Ahh ok, so suddenly 160+ hrs has been cut in half.
Question for you Denton and you too Lens of Truth. How many hours would you say you played lag free?

Posted on 10 Dec 2011, 08:14:01 GMT
Last edited by the author on 10 Dec 2011, 09:28:42 GMT
Denton says:
What suddenly??? wft? I don't know what you're struggling to understand. On the 19th Nov I posted a 1star review. This thread (a seperate thing) was posted 8th Dec. They are two seperate things seperated by the space time continuum. Seperate events. There is no suddenly.

I first had very slight lag at 50-60hrs ish, especially in doesn't Q'Whiterun. This was brief and cleared up quickly. It got progressively worse until the game became a slideshow mess. This occured particularly in towns or fights (80ish hrs or roughly 9.5mb file size), so the most important parts of the game. Load times also increased significantly and I'm talking minutes. The patch barely helped. It did a little, but not much and not for long. It also tranquilized all the dragons.

For me the game was a messy frustrating experience that I'm glad is over (as I said I'm obsessive compulsive and can't stop a thing until finished without great difficulty). It's a terrible shame because a game that was advertised as 'Infinitely playable is decidely finitely playable for a growing number.

Admittedly there do seem to be people who aren't experienceing these problems, particularly on the fat PS3's. I have a fat PS3 and wasn't so fortunate. One thing does seem consistent and that is that as soon as you start seeing lags it's like seeing red rings on your skin at the time of the plague. You know it's only a matter of time.

The bigger your save file the worse the problem. Time is not as important. Whatever you can do to reduce it will help.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2011, 09:55:03 GMT
Last edited by the author on 10 Dec 2011, 10:00:37 GMT
Ken says:
Okay slight lag at 50-60hrs ish you said? so lets just say up to 45hrs you didnt have any lag and were enjoying the game right?
Okay, so for arguments sake lets just ignore the reason why you stopped playing for a minute. Your basically telling me that those 45hrs, where there was no lag counts for NOTHING? 45hrs doesnt mean a thing to you even though thats longer than most games campaign mode?

If you can honestly say you didnt enjoy those 45hrs then i concede. Yes you are entitled to give this game 1 star, i give up you win.

But if you enjoyed the game for 45hrs with no lag your contradicting yourself by giving this a 1 star because a 1 star means the game is utter and complete rubbish, but it isnt is it? If it was, you wouldnt have gotten 45hrs out of it (or 80 or 160 whatever number you chose to go by) which (i will say again) is longer than what you get out of most games without any lag or bugs.

Thats like driving a ferarri for 40,000 miles and it breaking down then saying the whole car was crap. I am not arguing about the thing breaking down, but just because it did the whole thing is crap?
Or eating a bar of chocolate and have someone take it away and complain THE WHOLE THING was horrible just because you didnt get a chance to finish eating it?

And before you say your not saying the gameplay was bad, YES YOU ARE by giving it a 1 star youe basically saying the whole thing - EVERYTHING about it is bad.

Posted on 10 Dec 2011, 10:01:02 GMT
I respect your side of the argument K Wong, and I fully see where you're coming from, I just don't agree with it. As Denton points out, the allure of Skyrim is that it's supposed to be infinitely playable. I never said the game WILL break at some point (there is where my opinion diverges from Denton's), but just there always being a prominent chance is enough to put me off. I would love to know how many people are suffering with issues. I would suspect that it isn't just a vocal minority that is, however, but many others who are trying to persevere with it for the love of the game they were playing before the lag began. Also, there are always two sides to everything, and the reviews on here make it quite clear that people who haven't had problems are strongly defending the game.

Bugs and glitches are one thing in a game of this scale, even if they can be highly irritating, as long as they don't directly impact on gameplay too heavily. But as Denton says for many people now there will be the fear of lag worsening to cripple their game. That's what ruins the game for me, in my opinion, and justifies a poor rating.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2011, 10:25:51 GMT
Ken says:
Okay fair enough mate. I do get where your coming from and as you know i may get crippling lag at anytime in my own playthrough. But like you i will not change my opinion. The only thing i would say is even though my game is ok at the moment, i'll certainly be thinking twice before i buy another bethesda game and DEFINATELY wont be buying it on day 1.

I do honestly feel sorry for you guys and everyone else this lag has seriously affected because if it worked properly, it really is a great game.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2011, 10:26:11 GMT
[Deleted by the author on 10 Dec 2011, 10:26:46 GMT]

Posted on 10 Dec 2011, 12:54:16 GMT
Denton says:
I can't explain it all over again. You don't seem to be understanding.

Broken is broken. faulty is faulty, a half cooked meal with a raw center is the worst meal you can have...waffle...waffle...bla...

Posted on 11 Dec 2011, 09:50:13 GMT
Mine didn't even reach the 30 hour mark before I started feeling the lag. The patch turned the lag into crashes. I soldered on and got the Plat at around 50 or 60 hours (Gametime. Actual time was probably about 80 or 90 due to losing data from saves and having to scan the console when the game crashed and gave the console the idea there was a hard drive malfunction.) and I never played it again. (Mainly cus I actually felt that I'd experienced everything the game had to offer. I'm not particularly bothered about wandering through the same looking dungeons I didn't go into.)

I do agree that Bethesda need a kick up the backside when it comes to releasing games. 99% of other games are released without any problems (or if they are they're just minor things a week 1 patch fixes.) but this will NEVER be fixed.

In reply to an earlier post on 11 Dec 2011, 15:18:12 GMT
Whilst I agree that getting 160 hours out of a game these days is a good thing, this game was not sold on the premise "see how much you can play this for, it's buggy but give it a shot anyways" The game was sold as a complete RPG, therefore, customer expectation is that we can play the game to completion. Is it me?

Posted on 12 Dec 2011, 08:01:33 GMT
Bazlurgan says:
... All this and Skyrim still wins best game at the VGA's!

It amazes me that a game with this many reputed game-breaking bugs (I haven't played it yet - but have played the Fallout games), can still win best game!

Posted on 12 Dec 2011, 10:25:19 GMT
Thanks, Denton! I was about to buy this game. It seems they dont even bother to fix this problem...

In reply to an earlier post on 12 Dec 2011, 12:46:21 GMT
Last edited by the author on 12 Dec 2011, 12:46:35 GMT
Alien Girl says:
Not only that, but Bethesda win best developer!

Posted on 12 Dec 2011, 13:22:14 GMT
Denton says:
Like I said, massive deception = massive rewards. It's the same story in every economic field. So long as you're on the top financially you can do whatever you want and not really care about consequences because who's going to stop you? This is a theme in business that is far too prevalent. The pillars of society are being built on some very unstable foundations. Even politicians aren't trying to hide their corruption anymore. It's just accepted because of the 'who's gonna stop me' attitude.

Most Bethesda press releases are denying there is any real problem. It's amazing. It's like a toddler who's been caught with chocolate cake all over his face denying he ate the cake. It's ludicrous. Business leaders, banks and politicians resort to jaw-dropping denials on a daily basis nowadays.

I'm getting to the point where I don't care about Skyrim anymore. It's only a game and there are far more important things. This is however systemic of a far larger societal problem and attention needs to paid.
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