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Customer Discussions > top reviewers discussion forum

Negative Votes - again


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Showing 1-25 of 737 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 30 Dec 2012, 15:22:21 GMT
Charlie Bear says:
So where do all these negatives come from, I wonder? I'm sure that some of them are cast in good faith, but it's pretty obvious that the majority are not, especially when they come in groups and fall on adjacent reviews in my profile. I guess it's probably two main sources, the first being reviewers who have achieved a particular ranking and want to maintain it by knocking back the "competition". You have to wonder how such people think of their own abilities if the only way to the top is to step on those below you. The second source of negging is undoubtedly what I would call "vote vandals" - people whose creative talent rises no higher than to fling their own meagre t urds at whoever they see in front of them - the sort of person who, no doubt, would smash the glass in a phone booth or kick over people's rubbish bins.

Posted on 30 Dec 2012, 15:23:27 GMT
Charlie Bear says:
Would any of them like to step forward and explain for us, I wonder? Let me guess - there'll be more negative votes on that comment than there will be responses.

Posted on 31 Dec 2012, 09:29:39 GMT
I have the same problem, I review apps from the app store, I waited a day and had 64/94 help full votes, so I checked other reviews in the app and they all near enough copied me yet have 200/205 help full votes

It just seems to me that anything where you can vote positive or negative, you always get a mixture of both and sometimes hit hard

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2012, 10:04:40 GMT
You are either not a reviewer, or you are posting from a sock puppet account.

If the former, you don't need to worry about it.

If the latter, nobody can help you because we can't see the votes.

.... but in this case ....

"I'm sure that some of them are cast in good faith, but it's pretty obvious that the majority are not, especially when they come in groups and fall on adjacent reviews in my profile"

.... it happens to both types of votes.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2012, 10:05:50 GMT
If people are plagiarizing your reviews, report them to Amazon.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2012, 13:28:31 GMT
Charlie Bear says:
Well of course this is a sock-puppet, Peter. If you could see my reviews so could the vote vandals and I'd end the day with quite a few more negs than I started it. And I don't deny that it happens to both types of votes, but do you really think there's an equivalency between someone who gives you a cheery and unbidden "good morning" and one who runs his key down the side of your car?

I'm not looking for solutions - only Amazon can provide those (and they won't) - just venting a little steam.

Posted on 31 Dec 2012, 14:45:10 GMT
Damaskcat says:
I'm not sure why you think that - it seems a little paranoid to assume that posting anything earns you negative votes. Follow that to its logical conclusion and you might just as well not bother to post reviews at all!

Posted on 31 Dec 2012, 16:21:38 GMT
[Deleted by the author on 5 Jan 2013, 16:21:14 GMT]

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2012, 16:57:43 GMT
Quiverbow says:
Why would 'vote vandals' target you and no one else? As Damasckat says, any review is liable to gain negative votes and I'm sure all reviewers have received negative votes at some time or another. Without being able to read any of it, no one here can really comment as to why you have 64/94 and others 200/205 on that particular review. Maybe 30 people found your review on that item to be genuinely unhelpful.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jan 2013, 12:11:52 GMT
"Well of course this is a sock-puppet.."

Created to give yourself additional positive votes?

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jan 2013, 14:48:46 GMT
Charlie Bear says:
Let me think on that...

...no.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jan 2013, 15:07:18 GMT
Charlie Bear says:
Where did I say that I am being targetted "and no-one else"? I must have missed that bit.

And hasn't it been speculated a number of times on this forum and others that posting here tends to attract the "neggers" to one's reviews?

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 09:52:58 GMT
Last edited by the author on 2 Jan 2013, 10:03:27 GMT
"If you could see my reviews so could the vote vandals "

And so could other reviewers who might (a) show more sympathy and (b) be sufficiently impressed to vote YES if they found a review to their liking. Forum posts attract unsolicited votes of whatever kind, but it's only the negs that most people complain about.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 10:01:46 GMT
Last edited by the author on 28 Jul 2014, 18:06:48 BST
It wouldn't work for reasons I've explained before on this very forum, but here it is again.

None of us like getting those unhelpful votes on our reviews, but ....

1. Voting buttons are abused, period.

2. For every method of abusing the NO button, there is an equal but opposite method of abusing the YES button.

3. Plenty of people complain bitterly and publicly as well as to Amazon about abuse of the unhelpful NO button on their own reviews.

4. Plenty of people complain bitterly and publicly as well as to Amazon about abuse of the helpful YES button on other people's reviews.

5. I am one of the very few people who ever complained bitterly and publicly as well as to Amazon about abuse of the helpful YES button on their own reviews. I was ecstatic when the excess votes (a majority of my UK votes at the time) were finally wiped out, about 5 years after I started complaining, although I doubt whether my complaints had any impact.

6. If the NO button is abolished, the YES button would have to be abolished too in the interests of fairness.

7. There is plenty of cheating on Amazon, as well as plenty of things that are within the rules but which are widely regarded as unethical. Abuse of voting buttons is unethical, but like so many things in life, abolition is not the answer. For example, would you abolish political elections because politicians are corruptible? Would you abolish traffic lights to stop motorists jumping red lights?

8. Amazon's software detects the worst abuses but it ain't perfect and could be improved.

9. Most people get upset when Amazon improve their abuse detection software (more commonly called anti-campaign software), because they lose YES votes as well as NO votes. Abuse is abuse, whatever voting button is involved.

10. Amazon's software attempts to sort reviews by helpfulness, so that customers seeing a product page are presented, as far as possible, with the most helpful reviews in the spotlight positions on the main product page.

11. It would be too expensive to employ staff to sort product pages, so a computer has to do the work, and that means an algorithm that by its nature is imperfect.

12. The algorithm that Amazon use to sort reviews is contentious, and certainly has plenty of room for improvement, but the basic idea is sound.

13. Despite whatever flaws the sorting algorithm has, products with plenty of reviews invariably end up with three decent reviews being spotlighted as most helpful
.
14. Without those NO votes, it would not be possible to sort reviews effectively; see next five points.

15. Nobody who supports abolition of the NO button has come up with a credible alternative method of identifying the most helpful reviews without them. 10 out of 500 and 10 out of 10 would both become just 10 in the aftermath of abolition of the NO button, if the YES button were retained.

16. Abolition of all votes would likely mean the end of spotlighting reviews at all. We would be left with looking at reviews in the order of most recently posted, with no alternative option.

17. You have the option to sort reviews by newest first as things are. This is a useful option, especially for stuff that is subject to wear and tear, but if you compare the three most recent reviews with the three reviews currently spotlighted as most helpful, you'll find in most cases that the three spotlighted reviews are better. (Yes, there will be exceptions.)

18. Generally, the earliest reviews for each product get the most votes. While there are exceptions, those exceptions would be far fewer if customers could only vote YES, since it would be much more difficult for customers to push unhelpful reviews off the main product page.

19. Early reviews are not always the best, especially as people who take time to assess a product don't often post early reviews. This is particularly significant with products that are subject to wear and tear, such as toys and gadgets, where some faults only become obvious after extensive usage.

20. If the NO button were abolished, the YES button would still be abused if it weren't abolished.

21. If the NO button were abolished, customers would be more likely than they are now to use Report abuse in an attempt to delete reviews they don't like.

22. If the NO button is changed to require a comment, the YES button would have to be changed to require a comment too in the interests of fairness. The result would be far fewer votes all round.

23. Identification of voters (whether directly or by enforced comments) would create a whole other set of problems.

24. If the NO button were abolished, newly posted reviews would make their debut near the bottom of the most helpful order, being placed only above other voteless reviews, rather than somewhere in the middle of the order as they do now.

25. If the NO button were abolished, it would remove the only safeguard there is against the proliferation of placeholder reviews.

26. If the NO button were abolished, the biggest beneficiaries would be bad reviewers who naturally attract and deserve plenty of NO votes. This would be at the expense of both customers and good reviewers.

27. If the NO button were abolished, there is a chance that Harriet Klausner, the most infamous bad reviewer of them all, would again become the #1 reviewer in America, though it is more likely that she would have to settle for a high ranking short of #1.

28. Finally, please remember that the reviewing system is there to serve customers. The vast majority of customers either don't post reviews at all or don't take reviewing seriously. These customers use reviews to make buying decisions. The system as it is serves that purpose. Amazon aren't likely to make changes unless they improve the experience of most customers.

++++++++++++++++++

As an addition to the above, I remember another reviewer who was persistently attacked by one troll (at least it appears to have been one troll) in the days before Am-UK even tried cleaning up the votes. When they finally did in March 2010, the reviewer lost a substantial number of negs, just as I did (Point 5 above), but he (like me) lost an even greater number of pozzies (also like me).

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 12:44:43 GMT
Bob says:
Or just do away with the buttons and record the number of views.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 13:32:36 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Jan 2013, 09:00:36 GMT
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 13:52:24 GMT
Bob says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 15:31:38 GMT
Quiverbow says:
That can't work because you can have more than one review on a page.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 15:33:18 GMT
Crookedmouth says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 15:34:09 GMT
Last edited by the author on 2 Jan 2013, 15:38:33 GMT
Quiverbow says:
But you could still have the worst review at the top of the list, which can and does happen anyway viz: the Veet review where the supposedly 'funny' one is top, relegating those that actually have something constructive to say.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 15:35:44 GMT
Quiverbow says:
Maybe, but if an item has 50 reviews, that's a lot of pages to look at and many wouldn't bother to go past the first few so they would always be at the top.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 15:40:48 GMT
Crookedmouth says:
But isn't that how it works at the moment? Reviews are currently listed in full on the review pages and the listing can run to many pages. At least if it was just a summary of each review, then there'd be more reviews on a page

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 15:43:14 GMT
Quiverbow says:
No, you can scroll down to see other reviews and sometimes you can see more than one on the screen. I'm assuming that poster means that you would have to click onto the next review, as opposed to the next page as now.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jan 2013, 19:30:07 GMT
I came to the conclusion some time ago that most negative votes are cast, not because they think your review is a bad review, but because they don't like what you say about something they like. I don't think there is much to be done about this,much as I'd like to see the -ve vote abolished.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Jan 2013, 11:45:15 GMT
How could you record the number of views for each review? Most people don't bother with the individual review permalink pages unless they look up or add comments.
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Total posts:  737
Initial post:  30 Dec 2012
Latest post:  12 Mar 2015

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