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God's Plan for Man. Create for the best possible end, --- or the worst?


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Showing 1-25 of 185 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 12 May 2014 16:48:12 BDT
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Posted on 12 May 2014 17:37:32 BDT
God... the universe...

it is all wishful thinking and a total irrelevance to mankind today.

In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2014 17:46:28 BDT
Agreed...all this useless jibber jabber about the Universe, Big Bangs, Black Holes....drivel.

In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2014 18:59:04 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2014 19:13:38 BDT
It is a fallacy called 'argumentum ad populum.'

Let me give you a current example. All over the world are posters saying do not use a mobile phone whilst filling your car with petrol. Why, you ask? Because it is thought to be dangerous. How do you know? Well everybody says so. eventually the start of this 'worry' was tracked back to a fire at a petrol station in the US. A woman was on her phone and started to fill her car when there was an explosion and her car caught fire eventually igniting the whole petrol station. Cause... mobile phone. Actually almost certainly not. Much more probable was an electrostatic spark. But the urban legend of mobile phone use at petrol stations was born. No experiment has ever replicated a mobile phone fire in spite of a number of tries BUT the idea stuck in the public imagination. Another mobile phone legend is the use in hospitals. You might kill a patient in ITU. Total rubbish of course. I did an MSc back in 94-5 which was essentially build a better mobile phone and we tested out most of these legends. Millions still believe them to be true AND millions CAN be wrong.

In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2014 19:43:03 BDT
This is my favorite post of the year. Thanks. A real brain changer. Truly brilliant!

In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2014 21:12:30 BDT
Snowyflake says:
They're not liars. They're deluded, Greatest. A billion people believing in something does not make that something true.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 14:40:39 BDT
Mrs. F.

I agree.

Strange how the majority of the population does not mind the rest of us thinking they are delusional.

There has got to be a reason for that and I seek it. I do not want to believe that so many are that close to insane.

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 18:11:00 BDT
Greatest I am says: "There has got to be a reason for that and I seek it. I do not want to believe that so many are that close to insane."

There are a number of reasons why people believe that religion evolved. Most come down to two main features.
1. Organised Religion provided social cohesion during the transition from hunter gatherer to settled farming communities
2. Religion itself was an essential by-product of the development of intelligence. It is thought by some that the development of intelligence has a negative side associated with the understanding of the passage of time and the 'futility' of life (I am abbreviating terribly here). The development of religion provided a continuity that kept the species going. This would be theoretically back in shaman times and potentially developed for even Homo Erectus though no one has evidence for this.

In either case it is not insanity it is simply un necessary and now has unpleasant side effects. It is a biot like the appendix. Probably had a function once, we can manage without it now and left to itself can have very unfortunate consequences.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 19:42:17 BDT
B.A.Pilgrim says:
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Posted on 13 May 2014 19:44:30 BDT
Ghostgrey51 says:
There is archaeological evidence which indicates that Neanderthals had a system of formal burial which in turns suggests that species of Homo had a possible concept of a belief system. Their exact timeline is still subject of debate but being around for approx. 250,000 years this notion of social development would be plausible. Homo Sapiens developing belief systems would thus be not surprising.

As it would seem the Homo genus inherently seeking out a belief system is a common ground on this thread, then the question which seems to arise is where do we differ and go our separate ways? This one which is of great interest to me, particularly the way that Greatest phrased it: (with your permission I hope)

"Strange how the majority of the population does not mind the rest of us thinking they are delusional.
There has got to be a reason for that and I seek it. I do not want to believe that so many are that close to insane."

I do not intend to answer by quoting religious text nor by suggesting that such a statement has some sort of intrinsic offence within it, considering the actions of a strident minority it is a valid one. (Personally I view theirs as rejections of a Supreme Being's plan-see later on)
(Contextual aside: I think the UN figure for world population in 2010 was about 6,908,000,000; I understand that approx. 60% of the population subscribe to a belief system which would give a rough estimate of about 4,000,000,000- if I take a random figure of 0.1% as being `strident' then that suggests 4,000,000 extremists quite enough to make a disproportionate amount of damage - this is not scientific or social sampling just an exercise in highlighting how many a minority can be on a global scale. Feel free to argue the figure)

This is therefore an attempt to answer that very question.
By introduction I am Roman Catholic Christian (by choice).

If we return to the issue of our ancestors and the evidence of their perceptions; by example the progress of Sun and Moon we know they had made some quite sophisticated calculations forecasting various events, thus I would suggest our intelligence has always been quite high and thus we have been on a learning curve as it were.

Now we know our ancestors had a relatively simplistic concept of the world. We also know they had a number of verbal and then written traditions which endeavoured to explain the world and their place within. As the human race in its various cultures developed then so did the concepts as knowledge and experience was gained and garnered.

As we have progressed we have gained much in the way of scientific and social knowledge. In this our perceptions and reasoning have developed and diverged.

We have reached a stage where through the wealth scientific and social exploration there is near parity between atheistic and theistic. Broadly it would appear to me this is a predictable reaction. At this stage I stop for fear of appearing to be telling atheists just what motivates them-wrong.
Instead I move into my own motivations.
We have achieved so much in our progress. This does not challenge my Faith, it compliments it. Each piece of positive progress is to be celebrated. I speak here with from my own perspective, in that believing we are all part of God's Creation and thus his children; God takes joy in our progress as we would with our own children. Thus I do not delude myself in my beliefs I share in God's joy at our progress. Personally I see our journey as a very long one of discovery on so many fronts which has only just started.

I took a long way to reach a short answer, because we have taken a long while to reach even this stage. As theists we are making our own progress.

In conclusion I would suggest, and only suggest that as the majority of theists live comfortably in a modern world as it progresses and see no great conflict this is possibly why they feel comfortable to live in harmony with atheistic and agnostic neighbours.

Best regards to all
Gg51

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 19:46:24 BDT
B.A.Pilgrim says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 19:50:31 BDT
B.A.Pilgrim says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 19:53:30 BDT
You may think this but recent discoveries in Turkey suggest otherwise.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 19:54:40 BDT
Of course it is a rebuttal. Why does old make it more worthy? Actually, given the fact that old means less critical thinking because less overall knowledge, one might think the opposite...

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 20:31:40 BDT
Snowyflake says:
It's human nature I think to be deluded. Most humans are deluded about one thing or another. Men, for example, think they are better looking than they really are. :) Or that they are better at DIY, or making love or cooking than they really are. Women are deluded about how beautiful or talented or smart their children are.

Humans are also scared poopless about dying so they delude themselves with benevolent invisible father figures who take them to a nice place when they go down for the dirt nap. Nothing wrong with this in itself except people start fighting about who's father figure is bigger and better and then it all goes pear-shaped and they start killing each other and blowing stuff up. I object quite strongly to people killing each for stupid reasons like invisible people, or ridiculous arguments over interpretations of 'holy' texts.

If you want to believe in something that is not real, go nuts I say. So long as your ideology doesn't harm anyone who believes (or doesn't believe) in it, I wouldn't be on an internet forum arguing against irrational belief. However, that is not what we see is it? We see billions of people believing in things that cannot possibly be real and then killing each other because of it.

Not rational. Not sane. Not something that should be encouraged.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 20:39:51 BDT
B.A.Pilgrim says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 20:42:08 BDT
B.A.Pilgrim says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 21:16:25 BDT
B. A. P.

So having the vast majority of us end in hell, ---- even though your judge set and accepted a bribe, ---- is our best end.

Thanks for sharing your standards with us.

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

If and when you say yes, you become his.

-----------------------------------

The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God's will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.

---------------------------------

It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning and demanding his son's deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 21:19:07 BDT
N. V.

I know why things developed for ancient ignorant man.

It is how it maintains itself in a supposedly educated society that I wonder about.

Ancient man had many reasons to be stupid. We cannot say that of us today yet we are almost as stupid. At least the right wings are.

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 21:26:13 BDT
You're confusing ignorance with stupidity. They're not the same thing, ancient humans were ignorant by contemporary standards, but they were every bit as intelligent as humans today.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 22:10:34 BDT
Last edited by the author on 15 May 2014 12:49:08 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 22:13:45 BDT
Ghost

With all that progress, one would think that the Abrahamic cults, Christians and Muslims, would have progressed t5o the point of giving equality to gays and women.

You have not thus showing the immorality of the religion you follow.

But don't let that stop you from adoring your genocidal son murdering God who discriminates against half the world without cause.

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 22:19:35 BDT
Mrs. F. S.

I agree and in fact push against tax exemption for religions and churches when all we get from them is lies.

If our governments were not pushing the Noble Lie, they would be jailing those flimflam artists.

They steal from us tax exempt.

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2014 22:30:31 BDT
Dr. S. C.

Without getting into the various areas of thought, it is likely that in many ways the ancients were brighter than we are today. They certainly used language better at the higher levels.

That may just be because they were in the East. Their use of words was more extensive than ours.

Take consciousness. The West has about 4 interpretations of that word while the East has about 8.

This link speaks of the ancients and what we think they knew and they knew more than what we did till just recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWQLm9MYm-U

I admit though that I did not investigate this deeply.

Regards
DL
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  19
Total posts:  185
Initial post:  12 May 2014
Latest post:  22 May 2014

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