Shop now Shop now Shop now Cloud Drive Photos Shop now Learn More Shop now Shop now Shop Fire Shop Kindle Shop now Shop now
Customer Discussions > religion discussion forum

What you believe.


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1-25 of 146 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 23 Mar 2014 19:09:38 GMT
Heretic says:
I hear many people say that they believe in this or they believe that. There is usually a large discrepancy between what they say they believe and their behaviour on a day to day basis. Most of the religious here believe in one form of Christianity and one of the most demanding phrases attributed to Jesus is Matthew 5:48 (KJV) "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." which even in it's less demanding translations where the word perfect is translated as mature or complete. The fact is that the religious do not measure up to their own scriptures.

Why is this?

Could it be that we all live actually believe rather than what we say we believe. Even those whose 'profession of faith' is their means of earning a living have a discrepancy between their words and their deeds. What we do is what we believe (is best for us) even if regret that behaviour moments later but at the moment we did it we believed it was right for us.

I might regret eating another slice of cake but at the moment that I ate it the pleasure of eating the cake was more right for me than the pleasure of feeling virtuous by not eating the cake.

I assert that we always behave in the way way we believe is right for us. We have a tool that aids us and this we call a conscience and when we look at what we have done and in hindsight believes we have made a mistake makes us feel guilty. This guilt only serves a purpose if it causes a change in behaviour and if it fails to do this it slowly becomes destructive.

We do what we believe and we believe what we do. This is healthy for us both as individuals and as a species. This belief system only harms us when we another belief system imposed on us through indoctrination systems of politics or religions (they are closer than a lot of people would like to admit).

Religions often impose rigid behaviour rules that cannot be lived in order to manipulate people through their guilt response to their failure to live by 'the rules'.

We need to develop systems that reflect more closely how we actually behave (believe) only tinkering when the behaviour of the individual harms others. I think slowly we are developing such systems, not as a special project but just because they are the only ones that will work.

Heretic

Posted on 23 Mar 2014 20:21:31 GMT
Last edited by the author on 23 Mar 2014 20:22:11 GMT
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Mar 2014 22:00:09 GMT
Stu says:
Quite true in a way Simon, as our moods always change the way we behave. We can be nice one hour as we feel good, an hour later because our mood has changed for whatever reason we are hostile. Usually the main reason for posters to change their mood and become hostile is if you say something wrong about their religious belief.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Mar 2014 06:45:38 GMT
Heretic says:
Gomsy says: "His I changes as quickly as his thoughts, feelings and moods, and he makes a profound mistake in considering himself always one and the same person; in reality he is always a different person, not the one he was a moment ago. Man has no permanent and unchangeable I."

Perhaps you are onto something here but if a man is many then perhaps his destination is to become one. It is recognisable that man becomes stable as he ages and slowly becomes reliable. The emotional unreliable man is someone that is shunned, should I say those more emotional and less reliable than oneself are shunned, in favour of someone whose deeds most closely match their words. We do not have a problem with someone that cannot do something, that is the way of the world, but for someone to say that they can and then not be able to deliver is to be nothing more than a big disappointment.

Heretic

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Mar 2014 04:17:40 GMT
light says:
Hi Heretic,

I noticed your thread yesterday but I wanted to wait to reply because I thought I should think about what you wrote for a while first. So, after thinking about your OP something came to my mind when you wrote,

"We do what we believe and we believe what we do."

I think this is true most of the time but in some instances it is not completely the case. For me, I believe certain things and I try to live according to what I believe, but sometimes, "FEAR," gets in the way. When I am with certain people I do not tell them about my belief in Universal Consciousness because I do not want to be thought of as a looney or as a heretic since most of the people I am in contact with are Christian.

I believe in the interconnectedness of all things, which you mentioned in your post to Gomsy, "Perhaps you are onto something here but if a man is many then perhaps his destination is to become one."

Universal Consciousness connects man into one, but man in the physical body does not realize that he is connected with everyone and everything.

"Religions often impose rigid behaviour rules that cannot be lived in order to manipulate people through their guilt response to their failure to live by 'the rules'."

True, religion has taken something beneficial to society and turned it into a power mongering. The only ritual, rule or behavior that needs to be focused on is brotherly love, love your neighbor as yourself. In this way people will become united.

"I think slowly we are developing such systems,"

I'm interested in hearing which systems would that be?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." which even in it's less demanding translations where the word perfect is translated as mature or complete."

I think that the second part of your statement is what is meant. There should be a goal of completion otherwise there is nothing to aim for. Perfection is not a reality but a path to live and the journey is educational and beneficial for an individual to improve themselves, thus improving their portion of society and Universal Consciousness.

"The fact is that the religious do not measure up to their own scriptures. Why is this?"

Perfection or completion is not really preached, most of the time it is preached that Jesus does that for everyone who believes in him, and that there is nothing a person can do that would add to or take away from their salvation, that leaves little accountability for the individual to grow up in his salvation. If people thought that they could improve themselves without Jesus then Jesus would not be needed. It is all about controlling the masses.

I came across a statement in a book one time that has stayed with me, "What would you do if you had no fear?"

That's huge, I started thinking, what would I do if I had no fear.

"We need to develop systems that reflect more closely how we actually behave (believe) only tinkering when the behaviour of the individual harms others."

Imagine the systems that could be developed if there was no fear, only brotherly love.

thanks, light

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 03:52:27 GMT
Tom M says:
Not a bad post Gary.

Actually most people do live up more or less to their beliefs. Its just daily life. My parents devoted their lives to their kids and a good life, didn't care overly much about money etc.

Perfection is impossible within a time space continuum.

Our human will can only choose what the intellect perceives as good. For the drug or sex addict, it is the fix, the diversion, the endorphin rush.. this biological impulse owns them. Acrasia , as Plato saw it, the lowest form a rational creature can take.

Original sin is the most readily verifiable doctrine of Christianity, and part of why it is clearly the case that the only institution on earth that is fully consistent with what we can know about human life and existence is Roman Catholicism. Slam dunk.

I went to the sacrament of reconciliation , or "confession" as it is called , referencing only one aspect of this wonderful blessing of life.

I probably sin about six or seven thousand times a day, or fifty times.. , but I was particularly piffed at a certain circumstance I considered profoundly unjust and was seething.

The priest, a super guy helped me see just how critical forgiveness is for life. Without it we die. It's this kind of thing Christ warns us against. And we do all indeed sin, or what the word actually means, fall short of being rational people of good will.

So there is the superficial attraction of the passing. .the cars.. the babes.. money.. that great death putter-offer... We are created good with a tendency or potential for evil.

And we all know this is true as hell. And we have all tasted a little of hell.

And we know we are free.

So we know we are guilty.

And we know it matters.

And we have no hope on our own.

We fall again.

And again.

And again.

And nothing satisfies because we are made for more.

Atheism is moral relativism.. it has no rational foundation for even words as words are formal causes and final causes , so it leads to the oppression of the weak by the strong. Look at abortion. Really look at it.

And look at the most monstrous hundred years in all of human history.

Your whole post , every criticism implies a moral judgment. This requires a moral universe, or is it just dust talking here.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 03:53:23 GMT
Tom M says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 03:54:44 GMT
Tom M says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 03:58:04 GMT
Tom M says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 04:07:25 GMT
Tom M says:
hi Light

"True, religion has taken something beneficial to society and turned it into a power mongering. The only ritual, rule or behavior that needs to be focused on is brotherly love, love your neighbor as yourself. In this way people will become united. "

So, no moral law, no God , no Goodness itself and Being that must logically for a rational human being be the summum bonum , the highest good?

And to seek such a good is not to seek justice in all things?

Some words I found very formative and scary, were Christ's

"I will hold you accountable for every word you utter."

This is an expression of truth , love and meaning.

The idea.. that some persons actually try to hold... that the universe is not ultimately personal, and that its solution is not equally personal, is not even thinkable coherently.

The answer of Love itself, the Personal IT, as one priest-philosopher put it, is total self giving, perfectly instantiated for us in the person of a man nailed to a cross.

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 08:23:10 GMT
Heretic says:
light says: "For me, I believe certain things and I try to live according to what I believe, but sometimes, "FEAR," gets in the way. When I am with certain people I do not tell them about my belief in Universal Consciousness because I do not want to be thought of as a looney or as a heretic since most of the people I am in contact with are Christian."

I too have fear but that fear will not still my mouth (some might call this a character flaw). Most of the people around me are Christian and my declaration of atheism surprised many that knew me at the time because I had been a very vocal Christian for over a dozen years. I know people of astounding intellect both on and off the forums, atheist and Christian on both sides, and it is very difficult to figure out what they are saying to each other or participate in a meaningful way and take for myself the path of the simple man. The principle fear I have that might still my tongue is fear of violence and I don't think I am alone in that.

I would advise you to never hide who you are, if people find out that you have lived among them and have hidden who you are they will either never forgive you or they will pity you and neither is desirable.

I said "I think slowly we are developing such systems,"

You replied "I'm interested in hearing which systems would that be?"

We are developing legal systems where people are no longer demonised for being who they are and are encouraged to be themselves. The obvious example is the gay or homosexual community can no longer be persecuted or discriminated against openly. Immigrants have had legislation that affords them equal rights and responsibilities as everyone else and I can remember times when this was not so. We have experimented with multiculturalism and it has been an unmitigated disaster and a model needs to be found that gives minority groups equal rights and responsibilities rather than superior rights and fewer responsibilities but that is a side issue.

We still in a society that looks after it's vulnerable and apart from the last few years our sick, disabled and old have been protected. We need to make sure this does not change (while remaining affordable). We are changing society year on year that makes this an increasingly attractive place to live and many people escape from harrowing circumstances to come to a 'British heaven' and then start turning it into the place they have just ran away from and though we have been enriched by immigration we must maintain our core values undiluted.

I said ""Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." which even in it's less demanding translations where the word perfect is translated as mature or complete."

light replied "I think that the second part of your statement is what is meant. There should be a goal of completion otherwise there is nothing to aim for. Perfection is not a reality but a path to live and the journey is educational and beneficial for an individual to improve themselves, thus improving their portion of society and Universal Consciousness."

To have a goal of completion I think can send the wrong signals and can be misinterpreted like the Muslim suicide bomber that seeks a short cut to completion. To have a goal of maturity is attainable, it is indeed natural, and some might call it 'simply growing up' and they would be right. Maturity is not a function of age although there is a relationship there and we see young mature people and old people that have not yet left the insecurity of childhood (and shelter in religious or political fundamentalism). To become means to become who we are, to attain our potential fully and this is indeed probably attained by many in their lives although I doubt reach it as quickly as they might but this is in the nature of the journey.

light says: "If people thought that they could improve themselves without Jesus then Jesus would not be needed."

Read between the lines and isn't that exactly what Jesus demands, that we become who we are. It is Paul that confuses the issue with legalism of the law versus grace issue. Paul had no capacity to recognise that people change naturally as they mature. Maybe with our longer life spans it is easier for us to see.

light says: "It is all about controlling the masses."

I think that you're right.

light says: [I came across a statement in a book one time that has stayed with me, "What would you do if you had no fear?" - That's huge, I started thinking, what would I do if I had no fear.]

Then think on this, "What would you be able to do if you could control your appetites? What kind of world would we live in?" We will never truly know until we try.

light says: "Imagine the systems that could be developed if there was no fear, only brotherly love."

Indeed.

Peace (I look forward to your contributions).

Heretic

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 08:26:39 GMT
Yaawwnnnn....

Same ole same ole.....

The most ridiculous thing is Poopsey's continual repetition of such a stupid and flagrant piece of nonsense.

Remember the promise of evidence? I am sure he wishes he had not said he had any because we haven't seen any just the usual evasive drivel.

Religion requires faith and only faith. Atheists reject god, not through blind faith but for lack of credible evidence that those deluded theists claim to have.

It is sooooo dumb to conflate atheism and faith and only someone flailing around for a raison d'etre would make it.

Oh for goodness sake.. don't get me started.. it is just so ridiculous... !!

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 09:07:05 GMT
Heretic says:
Hi Thom, we rarely have much to do with each other so I don't know how this is going to go.

The main impression I get from your posts is this - That Roman Catholicism is the greatest achievement of God and man that survives on planet earth. Secondly that atheism is a path to hell.

I will take the second part first and thank you for your concern. That's covered that.

As for the rest of everything you say I have a few concerns. I will deal with it as a lump as I think that is how you see it - as one indivisible whole - and the thing that worries me most is that it is a stationary road block on the path that mankind has had to circumvent in order to carry on his/her journey. I do not know what would of taken place if Roman Catholicism had not existed in the form it did but I suspect another power broker would of come into existence (and power broker was the primary purpose of Roman Catholicism for centuries [and it is trying to hold onto the ragged remains of this role even now]) and Roman Catholicism would probably look similar to the Orthodox or Coptic traditions.

I look at the Roman Catholic role in European history and I see confusion, good things done for bad reasons and bad things done for good reasons. This does not feel as though it had the hand of an all knowing god in it's dealings, more like a bureaucracy feeling it's way in the dark while steered by power hungry tyrants. Sorry if that offends you but that is how I see it. I will not hide that I am not a historian and I have not studied Roman Catholicism and can understand why someone that has done both (to this unlearned layman that is how you seem) would have a different impression.

My principle understanding of the Roman Catholic church comes from the mouth of a Roman Catholic priest that told my Roman Catholic Mother that if she married a Anglo Catholic man (my Father) that the Roman Catholic Church would not recognise the marriage and that she would be "living in sin" and that all her children would be considered illegitimate. My Mother only stepped inside a Roman Catholic church once after that, Liverpool Cathedral as a tourist, and when she died she was buried by a Anglo Catholic priest at her own request in spite of remaining in her own eyes a broken hearted Roman Catholic.

As you might gather from this I am not particularly enamoured by the Roman Catholic church. The principle that this thread is examining is that what we believe is what we do rather than what we say. This is a difficult enough idea when applied to an individual but is probably even more so when applied to an organisation as large as the Roman Catholic church with (it claims) a nearly two thousand year history.

I do not want this to become a thread that examines the recent crimes/virtues of the Roman Catholic church as that has had far too much examination for my liking elsewhere [To the point of exhaustion I think but I suspect is about to be played out again and again elsewhere - I would appreciate keeping this thread at least reasonably on topic].

I had not given the idea of an organisations beliefs being seen as what they did rather than what it said it believed and I would like to have at least a few hours to think about that as it seems an interesting topic in it's own right.

I'll get back to you on that.

Heretic

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 09:13:31 GMT
You really ought not to try and rewrite the dictionary. It makes you look even more absurd. Atheism requires one thing and one thing only. The rejection of belief in the existence of a deity.

Do you believe mermaids exist?

If not then is that a separate belief for you? Dear oh dear...

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 09:27:35 GMT
Last edited by the author on 26 Mar 2014 09:46:57 GMT
Hi Heretic...
"That Roman Catholicism is the greatest achievement of God and man that survives on planet earth. Secondly that atheism is a path to hell.
" .. in the latter case probably involving sodomy and homosexuality which seems to be the content of at least half Poopsey's posts.

You have correctly identified the source of his fanaticism and that is what it is. There is little thought or measure behind it other than what appears to be one long scream against the rest of the world.

It has become increasingly clear that he has never read a book outside of the Amazon 'look inside'.

At some point he will start name dropping Aristotle and Plato. As Anthony will tell you he has never read either BUT is convinced that he (Poopsey) is a great and knowledgeable philosopher. At some point he will quote at length that well known cocktail Feser and Spitzer. He clearly has not read them either but that never causes him pause. His current favourite is Father Barron. The videos are long, tedious and not exactly strong on argument but he is a man with a 'dog collar' (metaphorically so Poopsey believes everything he says.

At some point he may mention evidence. It won't be forthcoming and then at some point in the future he will claim that he has supplied the evidence. When finally it is clear that you are unimpressed by his cut and paste you will be classed as ... sooo dumb... and he will flounce off to reappear later and start again.

At least now you will know what to expect...!

[EDIT] Here is little example of his thinking from another thread...

"There is little question that if Galileo had kept the discussion within the accepted boundaries of astronomy (i.e., predicting planetary motions) and had not claimed physical truth for the heliocentric theory, the issue would not have escalated to the point it did. After all, he had not proved the new theory beyond reasonable doubt. "

So it was OK to threaten to torture a man for thinking his way towards the truth when you are absolutely entrenched and more to the point WRONG.

I think that sums you up perfectly Poopsey. Never let the truth get in the way of your beliefs." ... and he doesn't!

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Mar 2014 21:51:56 GMT
Heretic says:
Hi Nestov,

For me this thread revolves around the idea that "What we do is a perfect reflection of what we believe (at that moment) and not what we profess that we believe". An unexpected (by me) idea has come up which relates that idea to organisations as well as individuals and I'm not sure where that will lead but isn't that what these pages are all about. I'm sure that the main thrust of the thread may get sidetracked at some times but all I can hope that topics discussed elsewhere will stay elsewhere and we might develop these ideas and see where they go.

Peace

Heretic

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Mar 2014 04:15:36 GMT
Last edited by the author on 27 Mar 2014 04:33:29 GMT
light says:
Hi Tom,

"I will hold you accountable for every word you utter."

I like the longer version better:

"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matthew 12:36-37)."

That means in real life and in every occasion including public discussion forums.

"So, no moral law, no God , no Goodness itself and Being that must logically for a rational human being be the summum bonum , the highest good?"

Of course a moral law and goodness counts, that's what following the Spirit is all about. After all, it is in loving your neighbor as you love yourself that shows a person truly loves the Spirit. (God said so, it's in the bible ;o)

Love is the Highest Good, it's what makes people humane. Brotherly Love separates the goats from the sheep, does it not? How can a person say that they love God, whom they have not see, when they do not love their brother, whom they have seen. I think that's in I John.

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

According to the bible, forgiveness has conditions, look for the words, if and as, they are metaphysical in nature, as above, so below, as within so without:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."

This conditional idea of forgiveness is also in the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Mar 2014 04:27:51 GMT
light says:
Hi Heretic,

I'll get back to you tomorrow night, it's late right now and I want to give your post proper attention.

thanks, light

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Mar 2014 05:21:15 GMT
Tom M says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Mar 2014 05:36:39 GMT
Tom M says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Mar 2014 05:37:27 GMT
Tom M says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Mar 2014 05:38:33 GMT
Tom M says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Mar 2014 05:39:45 GMT
Tom M says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Mar 2014 05:48:26 GMT
Withnail says:
Tom, you have not explained how a virgin birth is consistent with scientific fact. Until you can explain that ( and indeed offer a rational reason for any claimed miracle) then your church does not support science, it sits at odds with it.

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Mar 2014 05:55:26 GMT
Snowyflake says:
Assertion after assertion. Never ending assertions based on blind faith and belief because you are afraid of dying and your egotistical outrage at 'not being'.

Atheists think and conclude that gods and the supernatural probably don't exist. You wish to believe in the supernatural because you are basically afraid of dying and eternal nothingness offends you. To protect your psychological neediness and emotional immaturity, you denigrate any conclusion based on the evidence or, in the case of god, the lack of evidence for his existence.

Don't get you started? Reality is frightening for you. I would be more compassionate about it because it's like a child afraid of the dark but you're actually not a very nice person and you've rather worn thin my goodwill.
‹ Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next ›
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in
 


Recent discussions in the religion discussion forum

  Discussion Replies Latest Post
Announcement
Important Announcement from Amazon
158 3 days ago
Why did it take precisely 7 days, not more or less, for Jahwah,God or Allah to create the universe? 71 33 minutes ago
Gay habits and God. Smokers and the devil. 338 3 hours ago
The Virgin Mary. Mother of a God. the Epitome of Female purity and devotion to the Male 9 3 hours ago
How do Christians decide which rules in the bible should be obeyed? 117 3 hours ago
Why is this Forum so full of.... 13 4 hours ago
Book (Snapping of the American Mind) shows Harvard tests showing parental neglect causes homosexuality 916 7 hours ago
Why are atheists without theism, which is to say why are atheists, atheists? 56 9 hours ago
God, Jesus and Skynet. 0 9 hours ago
if you don't like and don't believe in religion nobody says you are religiousphobic. So where did the liberal myth of Islamaphobia come from. 12 18 hours ago
The Power of Prayer. 2056 21 hours ago
A Syrian refugee with a criminal past and a history of assaults in Germany has today killed a woman with a machete. Come here, come to us said Merkel. She MUST STAND DOWN NOW. 29 1 day ago

More Customer Discussions

Most active community forums
Most active product forums

Amazon forums
 

This discussion

Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  20
Total posts:  146
Initial post:  23 Mar 2014
Latest post:  5 Apr 2014

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 1 customer

Search Customer Discussions