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God Does Not Exist Because... (3)

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In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 12:23:36 GMT
AJ Murray says:
T. M. Woodman,

-"the view that science is the sole criterion of truth is scientism, not science."

Lucky i wasn't advocating that position then. If you read with a little more care you will notice that i was responding to Paul Davidson's request for a 'comprehensive and coherent' view of reality. I offer science as meeting both requirements in spades. Not only does it work and work well (as you have demonstrated) but it does not require any deity in order to give a coherent view of reality. Deities are simply not necessary.

-"It rests on a circular argument: scince cannot dsciern certain things therefore they do not exist."

Firstly, that is not an argument nor is it circular. Secondly, this is no criterion of science, merely a strawman of your own invention, albeit one which i find is common in Christian circles. Funny how such rumours and heresay acquire the status of fact when the chattering Christians get together.

-"It excludes ethics, art, love etc as well as religion."

It excludes subjective opinions since it is concerned with reality and reaching an objective description thereof.

-"One way forward, howeer, if you try to insist on that worldview..."

I don't, so any point you think you are making is moot.

-"...is the begin to examine the 'phenomenal efffects of spirit in the world of matter' (William James)"

Assuming your conclusion, as William James does, *is* circular reasoning.

Funny how you will castigate science for this (quite wrongly) yet when it comes to your pet religion it is advanced as good reasoning. Well that's religion for you; double standards, intellectual dishonesty and confirmation bias running roughshod over facts.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 12:31:01 GMT
But then, where did the universe and the milky way and all the galaxies etc come from? I mean, science says that there are certain requirements for life... If there was nothing, where did all this amazing life come from?

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 12:32:45 GMT
God created the capability of good and evil..

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 12:45:09 GMT
Hi again Tom and Simpleton

I want to apologise to you both. I made a terrible gaff concerning dates. When I read Simpleton's question to me:

>>> But wasn't it the Catholic church that said "Oh, okay then, we concede, we WILL start saying that the earth goes round the sun, and not the sun round the earth" only in about 1974?, for some reason I read it as '1794.' So my following reply, regarding the date, was nonsense:

I am not sure about the date, I am too lazy to check, but, basically what you are saying is correct. The Church can sometimes be slow to react to certain findings, natural as well as supernatural, but, in the end, She will always go along with the truth as She knows that all truth is a unity and has its origin in God.

Anyway Tom, thank you again for your correction and for your excellent post on Galileo.

Best wishes to you both

Paul

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 13:06:49 GMT
Hi Philip

To my:

.7. The Church Christ founded is the humble custodian of the Truths of Christ. She has no authority to change any of His teachings.

You asked:

>>> But, Paul, the RCC has the authority to decide what to include, and more importantly, exclude from His Book, no?

This decision has already been made by the Church Christ founded (the Catholic Church, not RCC, as I believe I pointed out to you before).

She made this decision within the first four centuries of Her existence. The selected books and writings were, and had been, included in the canon of the Mass in the early centuries of the Church, and still are read out during Holy Mass, in a three year cycle, which includes many, if not the majority of the canonical Scripture.

In other words the authority of the Bible depends on the authority of the Church founded by Christ, which also has the Christ-given authority to interpret its teachings.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes

Paul

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 13:30:26 GMT
Dr HotFXMan says:
"Paul",

Leaving aside the fact that ALL your examples of "miracles" have alternative and far more probable explanations, doesn't it ever occur to you to ask, nay DEMAND, of your God why he shows such selectivity in who he provides "miraculous" cures and survivals to? If God is as tremendous and wonderful and kind and generous and all-powerful as you are continually claiming, why doesn't he miraculously solve everybody's problems? Why select a tiny minority of victims the number of which is indistinguishable from what would be expected from normal statistics.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 13:49:17 GMT
AJ Murray says:
S.N. Muhammad,

-"But then, where did the universe and the milky way and all the galaxies etc come from?"

Current evidence points to a 'Big Bang'.

-"I mean, science says that there are certain requirements for life..."

Does it? As i understand it life is a relative term. There could equally be silicon based life form just as there are carbon based ones.

-"If there was nothing, where did all this amazing life come from?"

Life evolved. From matter already present in this universe.

Who says there was nothing?

Posted on 9 Mar 2012, 13:57:36 GMT
Last edited by the author on 9 Mar 2012, 14:00:12 GMT
Reson says:
Why a universe sprouts and grows is because the summer of existence returns to that
part of Nature. ORIGIN OF A UNIVERSE takes place this way: Imagine a very thick
fog-like condition existing in very vast areas of space as a thorough mixture of gases,
very fine soil, chemicals, and all other types of elements - this is PRIMEVAL CHAOS.
When the summer season returns to this area, like a seed planted but waiting for spring to
arrive, the gases and chemicals and all active elements which had been floating aimlessly
in space, begin to accumulate in A CENTRAL POINT. These active elements float
aimlessly because there is no gravitation at that time and there is no universal body
anywhere near to attract or pull them.
The many active elements (gases, chemicals, etc.) of Nature BY THE NATURE OF
NATURE continue to aggregate to a central point, and when some of EVERY ACTIVE
ELEMENT existing in Nature has focused in the same place, A UNIVERSE or SEED IS
FORMED and then A SPONTANEOUS FIRE BEGINS in the egg or seed and that egg is
the beginning of one of MANY SUNS which are THE ORIGINAL CREATOR in the
form of UNIVERSAL BODIES.
The forming of the Universal Eggs is THE COMBINATION OF ALL
EXISTING GASES AND CHEMICALS and this is NINE ETHER, the Original Grower
in CONSCIOUS GASES.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 15:19:30 GMT
Dr HotFXMan says:
This is just complete rubbish.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 15:22:35 GMT
K. Moss says:
I think he may be trolling (no...not another one!) based upon his previous posts to Paul.

It may be complete rubbish, but it must win some awards for imagination, surely?

Kevin

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 16:30:49 GMT
It is written as, and interpreted by millions of people as being the Word of God and thus correct in every way. The fact that it is outright wrong on the seemingly simple point (for the Creator) as to how it was created lends little supoort to all that follows.

Why would the creator of the universe talk in metaphor and allegory instead of just stating the laws of physics or something else useful and demonstrable? The billions of people who fail to believe in the Bible might have been convinced then. As it is, they are right not to be because it is pure bunkum.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 16:40:16 GMT
Dr HotFXMan says:
I see the six-voter has been around.

Actually, I didn't think it was especially imaginative seeing as it cribbed from One M Noopooh et al. However, I suppose it's possible they are one and the same person.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 17:10:34 GMT
Ian: I suppose it's possible they are one and the same person.

I initially read that as *sane* person. lol

Posted on 9 Mar 2012, 17:12:08 GMT
Last edited by the author on 9 Mar 2012, 17:12:49 GMT
Paul,
Your thread is headed *God does not exist...*.

After everything you have written, I am inclined to agree with that title.

Posted on 9 Mar 2012, 18:37:50 GMT
Re: Miracles at Lourdes.

Whilst reading up on some other topics for these forums, I came across a reference to the Lourdes Medical Bureau. Set up at the request of Pope Pius X, it's purpose is to investigate any claims of miraculous healing amongst pilgrims to Lourdes. Made up of a doctors specialising in various branches of medicine, the Bureau can not itself declare any recovery as a miracle, rather it investigates whether a particular case is "beyond medical explanation".

Of the thousands of claimed miracles over the years, the Bureau has currently found 67 (or 68 in one source) to be beyond medical explanation. Whilst those 67 cases are of scientific interest, it does rather beg the question of why a loving God would limit such miracles to one every few years? There have been other cases of recovery that seem "beyond medical explanation" that have occurred in hospitals around the world with no claims of it being a miracle.

I think it may show that the human mind, rather than God, is capable of having a positive (and. of course negative) effect on health and the advantage of having a positive mental attitude.

People will tend to describe any event in the terms that they are most comfortable with. An unusual light in the sky may be described by some as an angel, by others as an extra-terrestrial craft or a secret military aircraft, trick of the light or what ever else. Each will draw upon their personal expectations to explain novel experiences.

Cheers
Mark

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Mar 2012, 21:04:12 GMT
Last edited by the author on 9 Mar 2012, 21:31:31 GMT
Dr HotFXMan says:
Mark,

What is never mentioned by people like "Paul" is the number of those that have died as a result of going to or trying to get to Lourdes. This number so considerably exceeds those 67 or even 68 "miraculous" cures that, statistically, you are far better off not going to Lourdes.

I am still waiting for "Paul"'s answer to my challenge. I don't have very high hopes of a measured and reasoned response.

Posted on 10 Mar 2012, 06:13:36 GMT
THANK YOU LORD
.18. From the moment of Your Conception You
Came to the world You made, as God made Man;
Your growth began within Your Mother's womb;
You lived Your life according to Your Plan.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Mar 2012, 09:10:14 GMT
Last edited by the author on 10 Mar 2012, 13:00:22 GMT
A COHERENT VIEW OF REALITY (14)

Hi Ian

As an educated and intelligent atheist, are you are prepared to give us your coherent view of reality?

I am sure we would all love to read it.

Best wishes

Paul

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Mar 2012, 10:28:00 GMT
Dr HotFXMan says:
What a surprise! "Paul" ignores my points and asks the same stupid question he's asked everybody else......

Actually "Paul", since you have just described yourself as "an educated and intelligent atheist" I would like to formally congratule you on finally seeing sense.

Best wishes

Ian

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Mar 2012, 10:36:57 GMT
"I'm intrigued about the miracles that have happened in more recent times - can you say what they were? "

I wouldn't hold your breath, Simpleton. We've been waiting for him to provide them for a couple of years now.

It's worth knowing that Paul also thinks it was 'censorship' when one of the Pope's last visits didn't get 24-hour media coverage on every single news channel. That they had already covered his visits to these shores exhaustively didn't seem to occur to him, nor did the teeny, tiny possibility that there were other things going on in the world that day.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Mar 2012, 10:53:23 GMT
DB says:
Ian
Your lack of knowledge of the meaning of Lourdes is astounding.
It was never meant to be a place of 'miracles'.
It was simply the place where Our Lady appeared to Bernadette and gave her the message of penance and prayer, and asked people to come in procession.
Yes, over the years there have been miracles. Probably, many more than have been documented, as it takes years before a healing can be
officially recognised. Those that have been recognised are extremely well documented if you wish to look them up.

The majority of healing that comes from Lourdes is a spiritual healing, something that you would never recognise or understand.
Every year, at least 6 million pilgrims go to Lourdes. A small percentage, are the physically ill. The majority are there to honour Our Lady and to be together in prayer.

The difference between Lourdes and the rest of the world, is that the sick and old take precedence, and are treated with great respect. The sick and old are at the forefront of everything in Lourdes. They come first in everything. Everything is formed around them.

The beauty, and the love, and the prayerfulness there, are always beneficial and healing to the soul, and people return from Lourdes refreshed in their faith and ready to face the world.

So statistically, it is always better going to lourdes.

You should try it.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Mar 2012, 11:24:05 GMT
Hi Ian

So I take it that you, as the educated and intelligent atheist, do not have a coherent view of reality.

Very interesting.

Best wishes

Paul

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Mar 2012, 11:29:14 GMT
A COHERENT VIEW OF REALITY (15)

Hi Ryan

Maybe *you* are prepared to give an atheist's coherent view of reality?

If not, why not?

Best wishes

Paul

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Mar 2012, 11:45:50 GMT
Dr HotFXMan says:
"Paul",

Please tell me, because I am interested to know, is your other hobby going out onto the streets and mugging people?. I only ask because that is what you try to do on this forum - you attempt to verbally "mug" the other participants (except, of course, those that either share your peculiar beliefs or are similarly opposed to atheism - however odd they may be).

I asked my question first. So you respond. If you do so, I may give consideration to answering your question.

Best wishes
Ian

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Mar 2012, 11:56:48 GMT
Dr HotFXMan says:
Diane,

My understanding of the "meaning" of Lourdes is crystal clear and I have been there and I know a number of people that went there with the purpose of seeking a miraculous cure either for their own ailments of those of a loved one.

Lourdes is a money-making machine for the local region and economy and as such it is hugely successful. It is fuelled by millions of dupes that fall for the publicity and marketing. But because there is a religious element to it, that cannot be questioned. It is a huge, fabulously successful con-trick which will run and run until the ludicrousness of the Catholic Church in particular and Christianity in general is consigned to the dustbin of history - as it inevitably will be.

While I was not physically sick, the place made me want to throw up. Oh, and by the way, some of the people I know that went there got better and some didn't. That is what happens. And I did make a contribution to fund-raising effort - I gave an organ recital and the proceeds were donated to the Lourdes visit fund.

"the sick and old take precedence, and are treated with great respect. The sick and old are at the forefront of everything in Lourdes. They come first in everything. Everything is formed around them" - if course they are, you silly woman, that is how it works.

"people return from Lourdes refreshed in their faith and ready to face the world" - most people return from Lourdes no different from how they went there and, as I said, some don't return at all. How do you explain the role of your benevolent God in that?
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