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Jehovah Witness - The ultimate in religious delusion?


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Showing 201-225 of 560 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 21:51:24 BDT
Shakepen says:
Reverend: When you suggest there were no laws before the universe began, you stated one of the trickiest ideas I've read on these forums!

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 21:52:10 BDT
Jim Guest says:
'Before the universe "began" there were no laws!

Theist sounds like a theist.

Posted on 15 May 2012 21:52:46 BDT
Jim Guest says:
Slurp. Suck.

Posted on 15 May 2012 21:54:33 BDT
Jim Guest says:
The oleaginous believer oozes.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 22:03:40 BDT
Last edited by the author on 15 May 2012 22:05:40 BDT
Spin says:
Rev: If the universe "began" it must have been adhering to some "law" that made it come into existence. That is, there must have been a reason for the big bang. At the quantum level, particles borrow energy from the future to pop into existence. This matter collides with anti-matter, which also borrowed energy from the future, creating the energy which both particles borrowed in order to exist. Is the big bang bang theory claiming that the first matter in the universe borrowed energy from the future? If so, since the BB theory states that nothing existed prior to the BB, what was borrowed by what? But I digress. My point is, if such a thing did occur, (which I doubt) then this is not a "law", it is a natural process. What we tend to call a "law" is no more than a regularity. Nature does not obey "laws"; our conception of regularities obeys nature.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 22:21:19 BDT
Spin,

"If the universe "began" it must have been adhering to some "law" that made it come into existence."

The only laws that exist, exist WITHIN the universe. Before the universe there was no universe [sounds silly] therefore there were no laws. There was no matter to "obey" these laws. The laws come from the observation of matter.

"Before" the BB (if such a concept can even be proposed) there was no matter to create physics. A singularity is the point at which the physics of this universe no longer exist. So you CANNOT describe anything at this point or moment in time.

"Is the big bang bang theory claiming that the first matter in the universe borrowed energy from the future?"

No. Because time did not exist before the BB and so there was no future!

" What we tend to call a "law" is no more than a regularity. Nature does not obey "laws"; our conception of regularities obeys nature."

As I said before. We observe matter. If it behaves in a way we can predict we can form a law. I think we agree here.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 22:22:44 BDT
Shake,

There was no matter. If there was no matter then there was nothing to observe which you could form a law for.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 22:33:54 BDT
Last edited by the author on 15 May 2012 22:36:42 BDT
Spin says:
Rev: You sound like a theist: creatio ex nihilo...As for your comments about "observing" matter, read the controversy between Einstein and Bohr, the heisenberg principle, and indeed cognitive and animal psychology.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 22:42:33 BDT
Jim Guest says:
What is forgotten is that there was no 'before'.

Posted on 15 May 2012 22:44:32 BDT
Last edited by the author on 15 May 2012 22:45:28 BDT
The way for Christians to treat the JW's is to treat them for what they are - agents of Satan. Slam the door in their faces when they arrive at your home.

I used to politely talk to them but not any more.

They deny Isiah Ch 9 V 6 which details the divinity of Jesus, a pivotal tenet for a believer to accept and if they deny Jesus His equality and oneness with The Father and The Holy Spirit - clearly explained and backed up by Scripture - they are not with The Father God / The Son / The Holy Spirit but against Him.

On my computer I have a very amusing cartoon which I would like to emulate but of course won't. A man and his wife stand at the door stark naked and he says to her," I'll bet the at the last time those Jehovah's Witnesses ring our door bell".

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 22:52:37 BDT
Jim Guest says:
'The way for Christians to treat the JW's is to treat them for what they are - agents of Satan.'

It's not for pagans to tell Christians what to do.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 22:52:42 BDT
Last edited by the author on 15 May 2012 22:53:14 BDT
Inanimate matter does not reason, ergo it 'obeys' nothing but is instead moved by forces external to itself.

If I pick up a stone and throw it the stone knows not that it's being moved from point A to B by my action, nor does it know it's not in the same place that it was a minute ago.

"What's your sign man"? Astrology, that pagan 'science' that says my personality was determined by where certain heavenly bodies { and I'm not talking about my wife here } happened to be in space at the moment I was conceived is absolutely ludicrous.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 22:55:20 BDT
I gather you're calling the JW's Christians.

Are you also calling Christians, those of us who call Jesus Lord, pagans?

Are you perchance calling me a pagan? If so I don't know on what basis.

Posted on 15 May 2012 22:59:39 BDT
Spin says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 23:10:35 BDT
Jim Guest says:
'I gather you're calling the JW's Christians.'

You don't. You smear.

'Are you also calling Christians, those of us who call Jesus Lord, pagans?'

Us? A malicious liar is a Christian?

'If so I don't know on what basis.'

You do now.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 23:23:13 BDT
Come on then. I challenge you to put in writing where I have lied and to whom.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 May 2012 23:33:23 BDT
Jim Guest says:
That's another one.

'I gather you're calling the JW's Christians.'

From the very pit of hell.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 May 2012 00:01:56 BDT
What on earth are you on about? You're making no sense.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 May 2012 00:03:56 BDT
Jim Guest says:
Lie after lie.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 May 2012 00:16:52 BDT
I give up.

When you can talk rationally get back to me.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 May 2012 00:18:17 BDT
Jim Guest says:
Lie upon lie.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 May 2012 02:40:38 BDT
Shakepen says:
Spin: You capture my problem exactly! The universe is. It has no "laws." The laws are man's way of descrbing what is. In the absence of man, these laws disappear.

But there was something that had to be an "is" before the Big Bang. To say the matter,energy, time, and most of all, space didn't exist before the Big Bang is a concept that I simply cannot conceive of. If there were a Big Bang, then there is a God. If the universe has existed forever, then there probably is not a God. But to say that there were "no laws" before the Big Bang is a sematic morass that will trap everyone.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 May 2012 02:42:06 BDT
Shakepen says:
Reverend: And this is where I cannot screw my mentality to its sticking point!

In reply to an earlier post on 16 May 2012 02:45:32 BDT
Shakepen says:
Roger: I have not reviewed Isaiah 9:6, but as I recall this passage is the one that talks about a man who suffers for others. There is no mention of Messiah in this passage. The word Messiah doesn't occur anywhere in Isaiah as I recall. The logic of everyone is: Christ suffered; therefore, if a good man suffered for others, he must be Christ and the Messiah.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 May 2012 02:53:15 BDT
Shakepen says:
JG: Why are you spewing such venom at the JWs. They are not that far away from main-stream Christianity. Here are their beliefs, briefly as I understand them. They believe that Christ was hanged from a spear. They do not believe in the Trinity. They believe when one is dead, he is dead until the resurrection. I don't think they believe in Hell. They refuse to fight in unjust wars. They refuse to participate in government. They refuse to celebrate any holidays, including their own birthdays, and, lastly, they don't believe in transfusions.

I do not think these views are so outre. The word "Trinity," for example, doesn't even appear in the Bible. Erasamus left out the one statement in the Bible that confirms to some the existence of the Trinity in his first edition because that particular verse did not exist in the earliest Bibles. He later put it back in because the church produced an old manuscript that had the verse.
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  35
Total posts:  560
Initial post:  28 Aug 2011
Latest post:  28 May 2012

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