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Was a person called Jesus, ever really crucified?


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In reply to an earlier post on 16 Apr 2012 18:44:25 BDT
Shakepen says:
Spin: I don't know much about science, but isn't gravity a property of mass? And as for "pressing" down on us, aren't you talking about barometric pressure?

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Apr 2012 20:51:03 BDT
I'm not sure that objectivity is important to me. What is important is wether the experience of something - the Gospels for example is effective in terms of increasing my understanding of life. How would i assess wether that was the case or not? Do they help in any way to reduce or help me understand the source of my (and other people's) suffering and confusion? The answer to this is obviously going to be subjective and vary from person to person on contact with the same object or event. Death of a loved one can deepen someone's understanding or screw someone up worse.
What I'm interested in is YOUR subjective experience of the Gospels. What is it?

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 02:32:21 BDT
Harry W - "Some people have died for what others consider hoaxes.

Whether they are worth dying for, is subjective. "

You mean like the WMD deposits in Iraq, or a country asking its young men to die for "freedom" (since one person's freedom is another's bondage)?

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 08:19:09 BDT
Sam H. - Michael, "You mean like most politicians?" <Yes. And Jesus.>
Understood from the start. I may be dumb, but not that dumb!

- "What about someone who blesses the (unthinking) children!" <Stop giving them useless blessings and instead teach them to think for themselves.>
But it's so disheartening when yours stop thinking you're divine and start finding fault in you (rather than themselves)!

- "There's a rumour going round" <There is, but not from Drew, despite some now saying that I was originally stated to be the one involved. It's interesting how quickly a story becomes corrupted.>
True, but eventually somebody gets around to trying to go back to the source, which is what (some) people have been doing for the last 2000 years with regard to Jesus, or Jehoshua, or Yeshua, or Issa, or Yuzu, or whatever his name was. So you're NOT the REAL SAM. Does he really exist and who's got a copy of his birth certificate?

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 08:26:29 BDT
Shakepen - "Spin: I don't know much about science, but isn't gravity a property of mass? And as for "pressing" down on us, aren't you talking about barometric pressure? "

Isn't gravity what keeps your feet on the ground and your head in the air (but beware low clouds)?
I guess a Yogi may have the opposite view, And a Fakir (pronounced FAKER), well he doesn't believe in gravity, so he just levitates, like Sam, and floats away into outer space!

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 08:28:17 BDT
Michael,

I didn't mean to imply that you were dumb, so apologies if I did.

"But it's so disheartening when yours stop thinking you're divine and start finding fault in you (rather than themselves)!"

That sounds incredibly narcissistic.

"Does he really exist and who's got a copy of his birth certificate?"

Ask Drew. But as an investigation, finding the alleged person involved is a good start.

Posted on 17 Apr 2012 08:34:46 BDT
PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS, IS LISTENING AND IS BENEVOLENT
In my youth, when telephone exchanges were still using letters, I had a young friend who used to enjoy dialling random words. She showed me what happens when you dial GOD. A disembodied voice on the other end of the line answers "Yes, how can I help you?" So I've believed in God ever since!

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 08:51:50 BDT
Sam H - "That sounds incredibly narcissistic."
Not really. It's just a little depressing to watch them lose their innocence and start criticising you for the faults you have managed to pass on to them.

- "But as an investigation, finding the alleged person involved is a good start."
I've spent more than the last ten years looking for the historical Jesus and can only come to the conclusion that the Biblical story of Jesus is incredibly badly told and partisan, but not that He (the prophet and teacher) did not exist. When asked my religion, 'I am always tempted to answer "Heretic"!

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 09:36:39 BDT
H W says:
Michael,

I'll give you an example.

1. A lot of religious people have died for a belief in their God (Hindus, muslims, Christians, Taoists etc)

2. Regardless of whether the act was ACTUALLY worth dying for is subjective, because those who did die, obviously thought it was a worthy cause.

Personally, I'm against military warfare.

(But I DO NOT want a New World Order with one central bank. That would be akin to slavery.)

Some people of today who fight for "freedom" believe they are, and who am I to tell them they've just been selected by the forces because of their poor grades and the fat needs trimming?

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 17:08:50 BDT
Shakepen says:
Jordan: I once read an account of a man who watched an Indiah Fakir charm a cobra. He was blowing on a pipe. Everyone was watching, rapt at the spectacle. The man said that the fakir floated about three feet above the ground. At the conclusion of the performance, the man knew that levitation was impossible, but he had seen the Fakir float. His conclusion was that he had participated in a mass hallucination. It is possible to be hypnotized in a group. Actually, in some instances, it may be easier than singlely.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 20:44:43 BDT
Spin says:
Shakespen: Gravity is not a "property" of mass, but it seems to be as it only affects mass. Breifly put (and with noted absence of detail) the truth is that "Gravity" is not something "pulling matter down", but is, in fact, space, pushing matter down" towards a centre. Space is curved and matter distorts this curvature (imagine a large rubber sheet stretched tight with a heavy iron ball sitting in the middle. The ball distorts the the rubber, bending it. So it is with matter and space). This distortion causs all matter to graduate towards the centre as the space flows into the distortion. (The moon of Earth is caught in such a distortion, like a small ball rolling around the curve of the rubber sheet. But it is too far away to get completely trapped and pushed in by the distorted space. nOw, in all fairness this is a hypothesis based on Relativity. There are those scientists who argue that gravity is indeed something which "pulls", a fourth force of nature. The truth is, such a hypothesis demands the postulation of another dimension from which this force is "leaking". Gravity is the weakest force in the universe, no-one knows why. Indeed, no-one knows the exact nature of "gravity". But I tend towards the idea of it being related to space rather than matter, as it avoids some severely abstract and unsubstantiated hypotheses.

Posted on 17 Apr 2012 21:42:57 BDT
its almost true ... it was not a cross, but a straight steak/pole. Hands hung upwards.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 22:50:27 BDT
Spin says:
Shakespen: Years ago, when I visited India (a great but flawed nation) I saw a Man dislocate his genitals and present them in his hands, blood and gore included. I also saw childeren offering services for a meagre amount of cash. Need I say more?

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 22:58:45 BDT
Shakepen says:
Spin: I, too, have heard that gravity is the weakest force and electromagnetizm the greatest. My one question is that gravity seems to operate at the atomic level. How would this fit into space curviture?

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Apr 2012 23:16:47 BDT
Spin says:
Shakespen: Gravity does not operate at the quantum level. That is the great mystery of science and why we have spent trillions on enginneering looking for the Higgs boson.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 01:33:59 BDT
Spin - "Need I say more? "

Well, you could try to explain the collectively witnessed illusion of levitation! David Copperfield does this kind of thing, doesn't he? Now there are "miracles" for you!

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 02:37:37 BDT
Shakepen says:
Jordan: No, David Copperfield does not do miracles. He is quite upfront that he is an illusionist. Someone who preforms a miracle, advertises it as such.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 04:18:54 BDT
Shakepen - "David Copperfield does not do miracles. He is quite upfront that he is an illusionist. Someone who preforms a miracle, advertises it as such. "

Right. That's why "miracles" in quotes.
The real question is, do you believe what you see (the sun going round the earth) , or do you believe what you think you see (the sun going round the earth), or something completely different (the earth going round the sun) and why?

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 09:25:47 BDT
And some people who perform tricks, advertise it as miracles.

For example, Uri Geller for much of his career claimed to have supernatural powers.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 10:29:04 BDT
Last edited by the author on 18 Apr 2012 17:40:44 BDT
Michael,

it's very interesting that we go to shows or watch TV and see people doing things that we (the vast majority of us anyway) have no explanation for and defy our perception of what should and shouldn't be possible yet have no problem with it because we are told that it is a show and understand the person to be performing 'magic tricks'. if that same magician/illusionist was on stage at a Christian evangelical meeting and claiming to be doing these things through the power of god/the holy spirit, how many people there would believe those tricks to be genuine?

there seems to be a question of expectation involved as to whether one perceives a trick or a 'miracle'.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 17:33:26 BDT
But Sam, It didn't take me long to use the evidence I had to determine that the account was a fake - why waste time looking for someone whom I've never met to ask them if they ever did something that I know they did not. Like most people I have better things to do with my time.

Wayne

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 17:37:50 BDT
Drew,

"My report of levitation has been consistent"

Well, duh!

I can't believe you think your writings on the matter of miracles is consistent - you spend time questining or dismissing the miraculous and then spend time explaining a miraculous event you 'witnessed'. There is nothing consistent about this approach.

Wayne

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 17:39:09 BDT
Feeble.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 17:43:28 BDT
And you still can't see that you apply this inconsistently? Ah well...

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Apr 2012 17:44:26 BDT
Radciffe, Peevish - yes, afraid of uncertainty - no.

We live with uncertainty every day - but we deal with it by faith (not in the religious sense). I am uncertain what the the rest of the day will hold for me, but I soldier on regardless. However uncertainty about the past is somewhat wasteful.

The peevishness comes from your insistence that one cannot be certain about the past. That should't stop us searching the past and being certain of what it is not (Wars of Roses being started by Adolf Hitler and Genghis Khan). As far as I can see it your history teacher completely failed to teach you history - s/he simply gave you an excuse for ignoring it.

Wayne
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  85
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Initial post:  8 Mar 2012
Latest post:  27 Nov 2012

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