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Dawkins and Williams


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Showing 551-575 of 697 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 18:31:21 BST
The Church has never pronounced that the events at Fatima were miraculous, Drew, merely that Fatima is a place that is permitted for Catholic devotion.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 18:34:21 BST
On Lourdes -- hardly answered by the placebo effect I think Drew. You are confusing the carefully investigated formal 'miracles' which the Bureau at Lourdes gives its stamp of approval to (but not the whole Church) which are very rare, as you say, and many other minor healings both spiritual and mental and emotional that seem to occur there.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 18:53:08 BST
Jim Page says:
Parasite.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 18:55:46 BST
Drew Jones says:
"It is fundamentalism of a different kind, Drew, to think that what a text originally meant or what its author intended it to be mean is the final meaning for us."
I can see validity in this point of view but it offer problems to any belief in a divinely inspired scripture and that is that any value that has been rescued from the text can not be credited to the author but must go to the reader/interpreter. The Bible interpreted for instance becomes far more human in origin than divine, either that or God is still credited but as a very slow communicator.

"And of course if the text was inspired by God then it would not have simply been meant for the time it was written."
Well if we are talking about the Bible and liberal interpretation then it is said to be isolated to the periods of history (Old testament law) and in regards to it's statments on natural phenomena it would reflect better on God if he did pretend it wasn't for more enlightened folk like us.

Posted on 7 May 2012, 18:59:05 BST
Last edited by the author on 7 May 2012, 19:04:53 BST
Tom M says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 19:00:58 BST
Drew Jones says:
Isn't that an admission that it didn't happen? What is the Bible telling us if it's stuff people picture in their heads?

"The rest of the NT remains intact. But nothing is left of the Mormon story."
I disagree, they could take it just as interpretively and insist everything else is intact. If you can ignore the incredible claims made to give the Gospel narratives authority and still have it make sense so can they, there is little you can claim for your beliefs that you can not extend to them. Unless you are insisting that they have to be fundementalist or have nothing at all!

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 19:05:42 BST
Last edited by the author on 8 May 2012, 11:04:33 BST
Drew Jones says:
"On Lourdes -- hardly answered by the placebo effect I think Drew."
I said it was the placebo effect and statistical probabliity, we understand this things very well making them a much better explaination than the idea of a 'miracle' which is just a synonym for an unknown. It is only with specific illnesses we find claims for cures. The placebo effect manages and contains our sensitivity to pain and these are the sort of complaints Lourdes is reputed to cure alongside internal diseases.

"You are confusing the carefully investigated formal 'miracles' which the Bureau at Lourdes gives its stamp of approval to (but not the whole Church) which are very rare, as you say, and many other minor healings both spiritual and mental and emotional that seem to occur there."
Not so, *all of it* is far more likely to be accounted for by the things listed above. If it really was miraculous and beneficial to health then things would look *a lot* different.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 19:06:41 BST
Drew Jones says:
"The Church has never pronounced that the events at Fatima were miraculous, Drew, merely that Fatima is a place that is permitted for Catholic devotion."
Why is it a place of Catholic devotion and what's the difference between that and calling it a miracle?

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 19:10:38 BST
Last edited by the author on 7 May 2012, 19:19:54 BST
Tom M says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 19:19:36 BST
Spin says:
CA: Of course you would kill the slowest moving source of protein. God forbid you have to expend any energy or labour...(Sorry, you did ask for that). I spent much time in Africa in the mid-70s and 80s and the scenes of hunger and violence I witnessed will always stay with me. Trust me, you cannot say now what you will do when you are on the brink of death. Do not take your ability to choose the food and drink you desire for granted.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 19:24:19 BST
Spin says:
CA: Now that, my friend, has to be the most ridiculous statement I have read since joining this forum. You obviously have read very few of my posts on this, and other, threads. No care for the environment or sentient creatures? Are you serious? You argue against me precisely because of my concern for our world and its inhabitants...I sincerely hope that was a joke on your part...If not, I am at a loss for words...

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 19:26:04 BST
Last edited by the author on 7 May 2012, 19:26:21 BST
Jim Page says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 20:04:39 BST
Last edited by the author on 8 May 2012, 11:02:43 BST
Dr HotFXMan says:
Sorry, Paul, not good enough. You seem to be incapable of posting without adopting a superior, sneeringly condescending attitude to everybody except for yourself and your personal heros. The point of "outing" your real identity was to show you that hiding behind a pseudonym is no guarantee of anonymity.

Your personality, as evidenced by your forum behaviour, is not one that I like and I now doubt that you could moderate it to the extent where I would feel that I could discuss things with you as an opponent in the way I am able to with Kevin, for example. You fail to realise that there are people here much cleverer than you, much better informed and much pleasanter. Anything useful or interesting that you might have to say is submerged beneath a torrent of gratuitous insult and condescension. You are not a nice person.

Edit: as a further observation, consider your last sentence: "Incidentally, I think Stephen Hawking is a great , great man and probably wonderfully well versed on physics at the highest level, and a complete idiot at expressing a coherent worldview when he attempt to express his calculations and mathematical models using philosophical things... words." Do you actually not see how overweening this is? Pardon me but I missed your appointment as Lucasian Professor of Mathematics - perhaps you could direct me to some of your published papers?

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 22:53:31 BST
Pendragon says:
Leech.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2012, 22:59:11 BST
Pendragon says:
Spin

You say to Clive: "Now that, my friend, has to be the most ridiculous statement I have read since joining this forum"

Then you say to him: "You obviously have read very few of my posts ... "

Nor, it seems, have you.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 May 2012, 08:39:54 BST
C. A. Small says:
Spin unfortunately for you my answer was considered and accurate. I would kill and eat the slowest moving source of protein precisely to conserve energy and strength. On the brink of death ( I have been there- have you?) you can hardly move and any exertion is almost impossible.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 May 2012, 08:40:39 BST
C. A. Small says:
No joke- deadly serious. Your post that I replied to showed your true colours.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 May 2012, 10:56:48 BST
Last edited by the author on 8 May 2012, 12:16:31 BST
Dr HotFXMan says:
T Woodman,

"which are very rare" - we might be entitled to ask why? If miraculous cures really do take place at Lourdes, then the following questions are deserving of an answer:

a) why so few - a few dozen (official) miracles amongst the millions of hopefuls
b) why only in cases where spontaneous recovery has also been observed elsewhere
c) why no cures in cases where there is no known organic process - re-growth of a lost limb, for example

Are you able to answer these questions satisfactorily?

Edit - re. the re-growing of a limb, this would actually be pretty easy for God as the gene that controls limb regrowth is still present in human DNA but it is deactivated. All God has to do is reactivate it in an individual and missing limbs will grow. Simplicity itself for God, surely?

In reply to an earlier post on 8 May 2012, 11:16:48 BST
G. Heron says:
Tom M

"Though physicsts (Hawking) as specialists often have almost no clue how philosophically obtuse they tend to be. "

Provided any theory physicists come up with matches observed reality then they can be as philosophically obtuse as they like.

Posted on 9 May 2012, 14:51:48 BST
So 'Tom M' is now a proven liar and a fraud, with a history of being deleted.

Small wonder he never puts two and two together.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 May 2012, 15:43:16 BST
But the Bible comes through human sources as well as divine and it has always been necessary to have the Holy Spirit guide the reader/interpreter as well as the writer. This is absolutely foundational in proper Christian thinking.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 May 2012, 15:47:20 BST
Last edited by the author on 9 May 2012, 15:55:45 BST
Drew you are defending -- without citation I note-- a story about 3 people (who later left the Mormon church) seeing an angel who showed them a sacred book which they did not look into and then both ascended into heaven. If there was no angel and no text then what value is the testimony. The NT has angels and ascents but plenty else as well, and the essence of the story does not rest on that.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 May 2012, 15:48:57 BST
A church is a place of Catholic devotion. The Church has never said that Catholics have to believe in Fatima or declared the possible miracle there authentic.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 May 2012, 15:49:33 BST
Yes, you are right Tom, thanks very much.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 May 2012, 15:53:14 BST
C. A. Small says:
TW- a contradiction in terms "proper Christian thinking". The bible comes through solely human sources. Nothing else. It was written by men, edited by men, and a lot left out on the say so of men. There is no evidence of the holy spirit guiding anything. Coincidences are given special divine guidance status by retrospectively applying knowledge.

The day one of you walks through a minefield blindfolded relying solely on divine guidance I might change my mind.
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  32
Total posts:  697
Initial post:  29 Feb 2012
Latest post:  14 Jun 2012

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