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Why did God let people crucify Jesus?

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In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 08:10:05 BDT
Last edited by the author on 30 Jun 2012 08:14:50 BDT
What bloody arrogance to believe YOU can control God.

Man, down the centuries since Eden and the deception of the Great Liar, has tried to make himself God, a blatant example in ancient times being the Emperor Caligula and in more recent times, the deification of Human Reason in France in 1789.

I honour God and re-cognise my insignificance below His majesty.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 08:57:10 BDT
Last edited by the author on 30 Jun 2012 08:57:50 BDT
Drew Jones says:
"What bloody arrogance to believe YOU can control God."
Not exactly, the Bible and Christian's propose that there are situations whereby God has to do things that he apparently doesn't want to do but has to because of the constraints my thinking or belief has put him under. It's all there in the theology, I'm just pointing out the contradiction.

"Man, down the centuries since Eden and the deception of the Great Liar, has tried to make himself God, a blatant example in ancient times being the Emperor Caligula and in more recent times, the deification of Human Reason in France in 1789."
Or the Vatican, God's mouthpiece. Now explain to me why this all-powerful god of your requires human's to put across his message and best interests. Why does he always go for the most low tech, and highly human way of doing things of he is not like us?

"I honour God and re-cognise my insignificance below His majesty."
Well yeah. I on the other hand recognise that an all-powerful god shouldn't need my subservience, that sounds more like an all-needy, insecure god that is still trying to obtain power.

Christian rhetoric for their god doesn't actually match up with what they demand from people.

Did you also have any comment on how you contradicted god earlier?

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 14:22:11 BDT
What a strange view of Jesus! Can you provide your evidence for these assertions?

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 14:24:25 BDT
It was Adam and Eve-- but the story is a mythic one to show that humanity is fundamentally flawed..

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 14:31:00 BDT
Rather confused list Spin-- Hick is a Christian theologian -- his title means he doesn't believe Jesus is the full incarnation of God. Allegro is thoroughly discredited drug theory, Wells a retired Professor of German-- the others are orthodox Christian scholars, so they don't answer the question about historians doubting the existence of Jesus.
By the way, on Pontius Pilate note the discovery of the inscription about him (discovered in 1961).

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 14:33:03 BDT
Of course Drew -- but Spin was talking about constant trolling on the lines of religion being 'drivel', 'pathetic', 'nonsense' etc which contributes nothing to discussions and reveals so completely closed a mind as to make 'discussion' redundant.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 14:33:27 BDT
Hi Richard, Thanx for your post about the lovely church in Camden town. The Vicar or priest must have been desperate for money to repair the roof. I'm surprised he didn't roll off the roof while asleep or did he come down off the roof at night?

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 16:52:03 BDT
herbert says:
Hi Drew,
I am sorry if I didn't quite answer your question correctly and missed one out. I would appreciate that if you could rephrase the question for me and I will do my best to answer it.

I will try and answer the question all over again and I am sorry for my last bad choice of words.

Back to basics.
God made the earth,
The days and night,
Creation of plant life and animals
When he saw it was good he made man in his image, (Love, Justice, Wisdom and Power.
What was his purpose? That Man should live in a Garden of Paradise forever!
The very best he could create, perfect.

Did he make man just to be born live and then die?
Could not an Almighty God and Creator, with all the attributes he possesses make or create some thing that is going to break some time after making or creating it?.
Would he have it in mind to make man, sufferer some ironic illness and then grow old and die? No certainly not.

I am a imperfect worker of wood, and if some one contracted me to make them a table, with no cost attached. Would I have it in mind for it to only last a few years then collapse? No, there wouldn't be no purpose in me doing that, I would want to do my best, so others might look at my work and make a contract with me too.

So what about our creator. Cant, he make some thing that will last forever?

But perhaps he can't?
That stupid reasoning, because if he can make the glorious heavens that been there billions and billion of years surely he could make man to live forever. (We have it in our genes to do so,) All we need is Christ Jesus to do what he did to people when he was on the earth cure us from sickness and then all we need then is his spirit on us to keep us alive.

Eccl 3: 11 he as planted time indefinite into mans heart.

Any way why would a loving God make man, a beautiful place for him to live in, with every thing he needs, and then let him grow sick and die. Then take him up to another beautiful place to live again, away from his friends and relatives? It doesn't make one bit of sense.

So what about the account when Adam threw away his life?
Was Gods plan thwarted never to ever come about Could Satan the devil have that much power over him to actually stop him from doing any thing at all.
The only thing that could be done to bring back that perfect life was a ransom. Christ Jesus volunteered for that so in 30 ce he commenced his ministry at the age of 30 years. After 3 and half years it came to the time where he would have to give up that perfect earthly life by the way of that ransom. So he did just as the father had asked he to do so. he then ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand side of his father.
He father handed over to him the glory of being king over the earth.

I will no doubt get the trinity questions and I don't mind. Its certainly not a mystery to me its quite black and white.
Can Almighty God sit on two seats at once?

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 16:57:58 BDT
Withnail says:
So what about Judas. Did he betray Jesus or just follow the predetermined plan that God already had in place?

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 18:53:33 BDT
In the myths, the Christian deity didn't die for his worshippers. There was a completely meaningless temporary execution of a co-existant incarnate form of the deity, but this doesn't mean that the deity died. There was no sacrifice involved; nothing was given up by the deity.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 19:27:39 BDT
Norm Deplume says:
Quite so. It puts me in mind of Hotblack Desiato
spending a year dead for tax purposes.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 19:49:40 BDT
Jesus 'died' as a tax dodge. :-)
"Uh, okay guys... when the tax collectors call just tell them... tell them... tell them I've ascended to heaven. Heaven, yes, that'll do."
"Jesus, mate, if you think heaven is beyond the reach of tax collectors, you're seriously deluded."
"Ascended. To. Heaven. Got it?"

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2012 22:47:42 BDT
You have no idea of what you're waffling about.

It is fact and Christian belief that God / Jesus, in his human incarnation, died on the Cross.

If you can only insult and demean others for their faith the get out of the conversation.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jul 2012 09:46:48 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Roger in is not fact. It is your (mistaken) belief. There is no evidence it happened.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jul 2012 10:11:42 BDT
Drew Jones says:
Mythical or factual doesn't effect the point I was making to Roger (who incidentally does treat it as literal and factual).

This complaint does raise more questions than it answers though, like how mythical is the story - are all the elements mythical or if not, if you are going to say that some of the elements or characters are factual how do you tell? What does it mean for the point to be that humanity is fundamentally flawed and how does this fit with the previous (presumably equally mythic creation story crediting God who is probably not meant to be understood as mythic)? And how does a mythical story set up the crucifixion narrative - was that mythic too?

I don't see this as you do, I understand that literalists are easily weong but I don't think that that means sophisticated theology works any better. It just takes longer to unravel to show it wrong or it say nothing of value to begin with just so it can't be shown to be wrong. Both the literalist and the sophisticated believer can be wrong though. I believe this would be wrong because it's trying to have it's cake and eat it too by saying the story is mythical (we know it didn't happen) but at the same time still maintain it tells us something significantly factual or insightful into ourselves. I think there is a gap where you need to elaborate on what that flaw is otherwise it's just a basic observation any ancient tribe could make in the absence of great knowledge.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jul 2012 10:15:42 BDT
Drew Jones says:
No, Spin's posts apropo of nothing are looking for attention, nothing more. He'll generalise things anyway he can if he thinks it will get some cheers or jeers.

As for the actual posts that may suggest religion to be nonsense, drivel or pathetic - that which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without explanation.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jul 2012 13:57:48 BDT
herbert says:
The only predetermined plan God as got, is that, he will bring about what he first purposed, he can not lie,( Numbers 23:19) and he will restore the earth back to a paradise, and he will vindicate his own name."Jehovah" psalms 83:18
God as allowed satan's accusation, that man doesnt need him. Ie Read Job chapter 1.
Our God knows better that man because mans wisdom is foolish to him
1Co 1:19-28.
Jesus said "The meek will/shall inherit the earth" and theres no doult about that.
I would like to hear any other thoughts or explanations on that.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jul 2012 17:55:05 BDT
Withnail says:
I really don't understand what you have written. I am happy to discuss with you, but I can't answer what you have written. Is there any chance of explaining your point again?

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jul 2012 18:02:32 BDT

God (the deity) did not die for you or anyone else. The main reason for this is that he doesn't exist, but even in the Christian myths the deity didn't die as you claimed. Perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do...

And you having a go at someone else for being insulting and demeaning is beyond a joke. Especially when I was being neither.

You also don't control who can take part in the discussions, so climb down from your high horse.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jul 2012 18:03:01 BDT
Spin says:
Herbert: WHEN are the meek going to inherit the earth? HOW are the meek going to inhereit the earth? WHY would the meek want to inherit the earth (do they have delusions of grandeur? Empirical ambitions? If they inherit the earth are they not then the next "order" that must be opposed in the name of Jesus"?)

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jul 2012 19:51:53 BDT
herbert says:
hi spin
pleased to meet you! i see your name in quite a few of the posts.
matthew 5;5 Jesus words not mine.
just after armagedon i assume.

any way confused me more than the black and white understanding of the above

where do people get off keep saying that Jesus, is Jehovah. or to put it the other way that jesus is god. He may be a god and king, but not almighty God.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jul 2012 22:40:11 BDT
"Perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do..." As to God I think I am well aware of Him and where I stand with knowldge of Him. As to the Christian 'myth', I believe your snide comment works better when aimed back at the originator.

"the deity didn't die as you claimed". Stop talking through the other end. You know perfectly well that The Bible described the death of Jesus, who was / IS God, on the cross. "Jn 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Jn 19:31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
Jn 19:32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

I say again, if you will only seek to demean God and those who belive then stay out. You are only contributing dissension, which to me marks clearly the servant of God's enemy.

As Jesus said, "He who is not with me is against me".

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2012 04:52:44 BDT
So the Christian deity is dead?

As for "He who is not with me is against me", that is the creed of an unreasoning extremist. It's the sort of blind, black and white thinking that leads to trouble.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2012 06:50:18 BDT
Sorry to dis-appoint you and your infernal master but Jesus is NOT dead.
God / Jesus did die but defeated death and rose from the grave.

My God lives.

The words I quoted are words of Jesus - if you consider Him to be an unreasoning extremist then so be it. Those who are not on the side of God are His enemies - yes, simple black and white reasoning and just the way I think.

As I have said before sitting on a fence just aggravates your haemorhoids. There is right and there is wrong and no shade of grey in that argument.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2012 07:27:46 BDT
So, Jesus is not dead and God lives. Thank you for making my point for me. The Christian deity didn't die, didn't sacrifice anything. It's a meaningless myth.
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Initial post:  27 Nov 2011
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