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Why did God let people crucify Jesus?


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Initial post: 27 Nov 2011, 23:10:17 GMT
I believe God let people crucify Jesus because he had given them freewill to do anything they liked and that was what they wanted at the time. Then Jesus, while on the cross, asked God to forgive them because they didn't know what they were doing and God, being God, forgave them.

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 02:29:58 GMT
Tom M says:
Hi Posy

I think that's true. God never interferes with our free will. In the life of Christ we see a man who is love.

Love means responsibility. Just look at people's attitudes towards others when sex or money or even self image is involved.

Caveat emptor.

Christ is the perfect sign of a love so complete that even crucifixion cannot erase it.

It is a love that clearly transcends our ordinary human categories and one we recognize as divine.

So too is it completely consistent with what we know of ourselves and life that the free embrace of love is the only possible meaning for our existence.

One hears often enough that God should have sent some unambiguous sign... perhaps meaning dancing swordfish forming letters in sanscrit for our amusement.. and God did give us an utterly unambiguous sign. The crucifixion of Christ. And then He showed us that this journey into death, undertaken for the sake of love and in communion with love leads to eternal life.

Such a love truly surpasses all understanding. Can one conceive as Chesterton for one did, how humble a being God must be. To love His killers?

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 12:07:21 GMT
Jim Page says:
'God never interferes with our free will.'

So who was it who inspired compulsory mass baptism?

Posted on 28 Nov 2011, 14:44:00 GMT
Tom M says:
Jim Guest obviously believes that deciding to take your child in from the cold in winter or looking to his or her spiritual needs. ("Suffer the little children to come unto me") is interfering with their 'free will". Use your head Jim.

One day you're going to have to drop the really naive fundmentalist "God just dropped the bible from the sky." view of life if you ever want to find peace, for you clearly don't enjoy any.

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 15:03:24 GMT
Jim Page says:
Yet more fantasy and fabrication.

So the due and appropriate answer, we may presume, is

'Satan.'

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 15:18:42 GMT
Jim Page says:
'I believe God let people crucify Jesus because he had given them freewill to do anything they liked and that was what they wanted at the time.'

Though there is no reason to suppose that Jesus would not have been killed at any other time, is there? It has been said very often that the time and place made no difference.

'Then Jesus, while on the cross, asked God to forgive them because they didn't know what they were doing and God, being God, forgave them.'

That does not mean that everyone is forgiven, does it. As truthful papalists will aver, this is not actually a justified conclusion, because those fundamentalist papalists believe in hell, officially, anyway. (Though they also believe that water baptism, which in 'the good old days' applied to all, saves, so they have their heads in different places.) Jesus displayed a certain disposition to certain unspecified people, which may have been the whole point and purpose of this comment of his, and nothing more can be deduced from it.

Posted on 28 Nov 2011, 16:33:22 GMT
Moira Cooke says:
I don't think God let people crucify Jesus. The death of Jesus was part of God's plan for him and for the rest of the world. Jesus had to die in order to show the way to God. Okay, he could have had a simpler death, but in making it the most cruel type of death at that time and at the hands of his own people, it only serves to illustrate what Jesus went through in order to save the rest of the world. Have we got the message yet? No not entirely. But let's not beat up the Jews for what they did. After all, if Jesus had been English, we would have been the ones crucifying him!

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 16:46:03 GMT
Last edited by the author on 28 Nov 2011, 16:47:02 GMT
Jim Page says:
'I don't think God let people crucify Jesus. The death of Jesus was part of God's plan for him'

Is it really the intention to say that God killed Jesus; or that God committed suicide?

Or might it make more sense (and get closer to the bone) to say that the murder of a good person simply proved that mankind really was evil, and needed saving, and is evil, and needs saving? Had Jesus survived, surely that would have been evidence that mankind was doing ok, thank you.

The means of death is irrelevant. Jesus did not have to take the blame for everyone else. He could have said, "Go to hell," and nobody could have blamed him in the least.

Posted on 28 Nov 2011, 16:52:01 GMT
The answer is always in the Bible! "Jesus was handed over to you by Gods set purpose and foreknowledge and you with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Acts 2:23

Everyone helped put Jesus on the cross because "All have sinned." Romans 3:23. The Jewish people and the Roman soldiers were instrument God used to bring about his purposes.

Posted on 28 Nov 2011, 16:52:22 GMT
I find it very convenient that God sent His Son to a nation that already believed in Him. Have you ever wondered why he didn't send him to some other nation, such as Rome, or Athens, or China, or the Mayans, either then or at any other time in the previous several thousand years, to convince them that He was the one, rather than Zeus or Mithras or whatever?

Posted on 28 Nov 2011, 17:06:49 GMT
Jim Page says:
'I find it very convenient that God sent His Son to a nation that already believed in Him.'

But they didn't believe in 'Him'. They murdered him. The wonder is, why the hell does deity continue to put up with humanity.

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 17:10:32 GMT
Pendragon says:
Jim

You say "They murdered him".

Who do you refer to when you say "they"?

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 17:17:03 GMT
Last edited by the author on 28 Nov 2011, 17:17:13 GMT
Jim Page says:
The persons alluded to in the post that I replied to.
Your reply to Jim Page's post:
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In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 18:38:49 GMT
Pendragon says:
So "they" means "the nation" [of Israel?]?

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 18:41:42 GMT
Jim Page says:
? Who else could be referred to?

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 18:59:45 GMT
Pendragon says:
OK, you say that the nation of Israel murdered Jesus.

Do you also say that the Romans had nothing to do with it?

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 19:26:43 GMT
Jim Page says:
'OK, you say that the nation of Israel murdered Jesus.'

The privileged, learned and responsible leaders thereof, yes, people whose ancestors, even the most wayward, would not have readily recognised as being of the same tradition. Of course, the church, that mostly contained more ordinary, yet orthodox people, including ex-priests, was at first composed entirely of 'Israelites', who took some convincing that the church was to include others, so it would of course be very ignorant indeed to try to apportion blame on this whole nation. But we at Amazon are far too well read not to realise that, aren't we.

'Do you also say that the Romans had nothing to do with it?'

The Romans operated as much a police state as had ever been (and it was not the first), yet they took no exception to Jesus during his ministry, estimated as of three years duration. They executed him only after threats of disturbances from those aforementioned leaders, who had indeed won unusual concessions from the Empire because of their fervent insistence on following one whom they claimed to be their unique deity. So while the Roman Empire was the actual instrument of murder, it was in this case no more guilty than it was guilty of countless other killings by which it had attained and maintained empire. The significant role in this instance, in terms of matters spiritual, rather than political, was that of the Sanhedrin.

Posted on 28 Nov 2011, 21:38:39 GMT
Spin says:
Jesus wanted to be crucified. He did everything he could to bring about his execution. Why? Because only a Messiah will die for mankind. For a man to claim to be "The" Messiah, he must die for mankind. Jesus could not but die prematurely at the hands of mankind; that was the core of his belief in himself as a Messiah. But Jesus was not, nor will be, the only person to give thier life for a cause, be it for or against the benefit of humanity.

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 22:16:07 GMT
Aidan says:
The argument that Jesus wanted to die tags a long with all the other conspiracy theories about what was the motivation or actions of Jesus and his followers leading up to and after the crucifixion. If he wanted this for himself he would have been a mad man. The realities of the painful and humiliating death were a reality that all Jews under roman occupation would understand. For a leader of a group claiming to be a Messiah to fail so completely as to be unable to save himself from this kind execution would have meant that he would have continued to be abandoned and forgotten to history. It is the fact that he conquered death and came back meant that we are having this discussion now.

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 22:20:44 GMT
Spin says:
Aiden: It is not a "conspiricy" theory.At Gethsemane, Jesus doubted whether he wanted to die, asking God not to subject him to such a fate. He then resolved himself to fulfilling his quest. Its in the bible and is a central story in christian belief (concerning the fact that even Jesus had doubts).

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 22:26:00 GMT
[Deleted by the author on 30 Nov 2011, 22:28:25 GMT]

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 22:26:41 GMT
Aidan says:
The issue of blaming Jews for the crucifixion has a lot to do with the fact that the church through Peter and Paul had become centred on Rome. When Christianity was adopted by Rome as the official religion the part played by the Romans in the death of Jesus was inconvenient and probably played down. So the Jews got the blame missing the point that Jesus and the Apostles where a bunch of Jews themselves.

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Nov 2011, 22:34:23 GMT
Aidan says:
Spin
It the statement you made that he wanted to die. Yes he had doubts but we often find ourselves in events that lead us to a path we don't really want but have to face, but have no real choice once things are set in motion. He could have walked away but was betrayed. Its part of what makes the story more powerful is his humanity.

Posted on 28 Nov 2011, 22:38:36 GMT
Spin says:
The Bible blames the Jews for the death of thier Messiah only because, as through all history, Jews were anathema to the state. For the christians to gain a foothold in Rome, they could not support a group of people who worshipped "Yahweh" and considered themselves "chosen by God" instead of "Caesar", "The Senate" and "The People of Rome" (SPQR) Political expediency, on the part of christians and the governmental system of the ages, resulted, ultimately, in the Holocaust.

Posted on 28 Nov 2011, 22:45:47 GMT
TomMc says:
It's pretty simple. It was God's plan all along. Jesus came to die, and so he did.

Why he had to die?
Because the wages for sin is death. All people are sinners one way or the other, so they all would have to die (in spiritual meaning not just physically die, but go to hell to die eternally). Yet God wanted to save people. So the 'wages of sin' had to be paid by somebody else. Well, God being who he is made the tough choice - he paid the debt himself. He became a man and died, thus paying for the sins of men (all people really). His death was apparently sufficient to pay for the debt of all people because he was the only being ever lived without sin, i.e. with no debt of his own, and of course he was after all a God.
(See also the principle of Sacrifice in the Old Testament)

Why God let people crucify Jesus?
The above already explains it. The real interesting question is - what would have happened if people did NOT crucify Jesus? That would send God's plan to shambles. But I suppose God being omniscient and all surely planned this out very carefully. In a way I believe there was no chance people of the time would not have wanted him killed (he was too 'difficult', too 'politically incorrect', and stepped on too many toes by his exposing the truth), so it was inevitable.

Who crucified Jesus? And did they do a crime by it?
It used to be a common practice to blame the Jews and call them the murderers of Jesus. Yet assuming that Jesus was destined to die anyway, jews can just as well be called the executors of God's will. Of course their motives at the time were nowhere so noble, they really had the murder at heart. But even so blaming the whole nation for that one episode is stupid. If Jesus happened to be, say, a Greek, greeks would have murdered him...

The point is to blame somebody for the death of Jesus is, well, pointless.
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Initial post:  27 Nov 2011
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