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God Does Not Exist Because. . . (2)

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In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 16:54:54 GMT
Spin -

What defines, from the point of view of a gene, success or failure? The number of descendants that gene finds itself in.

Evolution is the product of non-perfect reproduction of genetic code. Mistakes creep in, at random, and occasionally the mistake actually builds something that is of advantage in terms of number of descendants. No infinite regress required.

The process of genetic adaptation is the errors sometimes creep in when DNA or RNA copies itself.

Hope that helps


In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 16:55:14 GMT
Hi Mark,

my understanding of Neanderthals is that they were not that different to us and interbreeding has been suggested. in stature they might have been heaver set but but i can think of nothing to suggest them being thought of as Giant.

all the best


In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 17:02:47 GMT
Last edited by the author on 5 Mar 2012, 17:38:01 GMT
Spin says:
MJ: Sorry. You are telling me what happens, not how it happens. Further, if you subscribe to "evolution" as an explanation of Natural selection, without explaining how the two are connected, then at least explain why "evolution" has not allowed other species to counter the influence of one species (homo sapiens) which is detrimental to their survival. Natural selection can explain this, "Evolution" cannot.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 17:06:58 GMT
Last edited by the author on 5 Mar 2012, 17:08:55 GMT
Hi Kevin,

As I mentioned in my previous post, some, but not all, people confuse evolution with speciation.

Evolution can, as the Peppered Moth example illustrates, result in a single species swinging back and forth between what might be called "variants" of the species.

It can also, over longer periods of time, result in one common ancestor giving rise to over 200 different kinds of closely related African cichlid fish an Hawaiian fruit fly illustrate.

Sorry, I forgot to add the link to my previous post where I gave some observed examples of speciation taking place. I'll post this now and edit it to contain the link in a moment.


LINK - http://www.amazon.co.uk/forum/religion/ref=cm_cd_et_md_pl?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx24A4CS3HPMJLK&cdMsgNo=9910&cdPage=397&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx1Z36NRUUSXBE4&cdMsgID=MxYMGIT1I639RR#MxYMGIT1I639RR

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 17:13:55 GMT
Spin -

I do not subscribe to evolution as an explanation for natural selection!

Evolution results in variations in a population, Natural selection results in some of those variations having more or less descendants. You seem to be putting the cart before the horse.

How it happens - non-perfect copying of DNA or RNA.


In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 17:16:38 GMT
Hi Richard

Not "giant" as we think of them in fairy tales etc, but a term for "bigger than us" that has come down to us as the word "giant". Remember, stories tend to get "better" over time

Sorry for quick posts, I am being reminded I should be doing something else right now. More later


In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 17:36:53 GMT

i got to admit to not knowing the Genesis reference so flying a bit blind but i'm just thinking they they would have just as likely been referred to as 'those hairy people' or 'those ugly Bas*****', 'Millwall supporters etc. as a random thought, given that the great pyramids were built around a couple of thousand years before the Genesis account was written might it not be that accounts of huge buildings and statues be ascribed to having been built by giants by people only having heard about them?


In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 17:42:21 GMT
Spin says:
MJ: Sorry, if you do not subscribe to "evolution", why defend it and argue against me, causing me to expend the energy of the few brain-cells I still possess? (You're not my wife, are you? =)

Posted on 5 Mar 2012, 17:46:46 GMT
C. A. Small says:




In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 17:50:08 GMT
Last edited by the author on 5 Mar 2012, 17:56:04 GMT
Spin -

I am beginning to wonder if you are just posting contrary statements for the sake of it?

I wrote, as you well know "I do not subscribe to evolution as an explanation for natural selection" because they are two sides of the equation. Evolution is the change of alleles in a population of organisms and natural selection is why there are more of one variant than another.

If you are still confused, please read through this entire thread once again.


Posted on 5 Mar 2012, 17:50:09 GMT
Spin says:
Here we go....Where's the TV times....

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 17:55:14 GMT
Richard, Re: huge buildings and statues.

You may well be right about that.

The reference is Genesis 6:4 (just before the flood) "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that" (KJV)

Although Genesis was written down at the time you mention, it was a very ancient story even then. I guess we will never know for sure what the reference was really inspired by.


In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 18:06:58 GMT
C. A. Small says:
MJB- spins task in life is to irritate. That is why I have him on ignore.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 18:11:13 GMT
Spin says:
CA: Be honest. You have me on ignore when you feel like it. But curiousity gets the better of you...=0 (if you disagree, then, if you have me on ignore, how do you know what I posted that made you reply to it?) (I love you too...) =)

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 18:15:54 GMT

i'm going to have to get a bible! but is it saying giants were around before the flood (not on the ark though) and then after the flood as well?

i know there's a free bible for the kindle, i'll have to sort it out.

surely the genesis account is a compilation including the two creation accounts.

reaching for my kindle .................

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 18:23:29 GMT
Hi Kevin,

Sorry for my previous rather rushed post.

I think you highlight the difference between saying "evolution doesn't exist" and "I don't believe that evolution fully explains bio-diversity"

In a similar way it is one thing to say "God doesn't exist" and quite another to say "I don't believe that anything yet observed requires God as an explanation".

In each case one can lead to an interesting and informative discussion and the other is more akin to bigotry.


In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 18:32:19 GMT
Hi Richard,

I can't remember which Kindle Bible I went for in the end. I have traditional paper based copies of King James and New King James versions. However, I mainly use http://www.biblegateway.com/ as it allows you to search by book, topic or keywords and allows you to change between well over 20 English language translations.

I imagine that the "giants" perished in the flood. The usual explanation is that it combines two creation myths but Bert would argue that the second description is a recap of the first.


Posted on 5 Mar 2012, 18:41:02 GMT
Spin says:
Free bible, Free Torah, free Qu'ran...Don't know what to think or how to act? Buy a Kindle! Free moral direction, success and happiness! And you thought living was complex? Not with Kindle! (T&Cs apply, as they do in the religious and political texts you read)...

Posted on 5 Mar 2012, 18:45:19 GMT
Spin says:
To hell with living life. as long as people leave us alone to stare at a screen,we can find out everything about life from facebook, twitter, google and Amazon..

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 20:05:10 GMT
Spin -

Lots of free books to expand your horizons available on the Kindle!

Posted on 5 Mar 2012, 20:18:25 GMT
Bert - Re:144,000

So, does God already know (including yet to b born) who will be on the list, or does the list change depending on how people live their lives? If he already knows, what happened to freewill?

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 20:21:28 GMT
Spin says:
MJ: free books are those of no worth financially or intellectually. If a book is free it means either the cpyright has run out or no sod is going to pay to read its nionsense.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 21:00:30 GMT
kraka says:
Mr. M. J. Bowyer hi

greetings, In your post to Bert you ask, " If he already knows, what happened to freewill?

I cannot see how if God outside of space and time with an overview as such in anyway undermines our "blind" use of free will, and is it not possible that even if everything was preordained that it was based on how we use the freewill, either living our lives for ourselves or for God. If you see what i mean.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Mar 2012, 21:37:59 GMT
Last edited by the author on 5 Mar 2012, 21:48:12 GMT

Re: 144,000

Irrespective of what God knows - we as individuals have free will in every respect. Although, as the Bible says 'But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.' James 1:14,15

As you have already suggested, the selection of the 144,000 does depend on how a Christian leads his life. Anyone can fail and stumble - if one of the 144,000 for some reason rejects their calling, it is serious because unlike anyone else, they are withdrawing from God's holy spirit. They must have had something that God found appealing in the first place - nevertheless, we are all imperfect humans. Moses killed an Egyptian and buried him in the sand - because he saw a Hebrew slave being mistreated. Murder is a serious offence - yet, Jehovah saw Moses' motive and heart condition and it took many more years before God used Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. It was God's intention to free the nation of Israel .. but it was another 40 years until God used him (Moses was then 80 years of age by the time of the Exodus)

Judas Iscariot was given the opportunity to be one of Jesus disciples, but chose to betray him for 30 shekels of silver. Judas had genuine free will, although God can choose to peer into time and see the outcome of events. If He chooses, He can thus reveal prophecy in scripture. After Judas realised what he had done - it was too late.

Matthew 27:3~5 'Then Judas, who betrayed him, seeing he had been condemned, felt remorse and turned the thirty silver pieces back to the chief priests and older men, [4] saying: "I sinned when I betrayed righteous blood." They said: "What is that to us? You must see to that!" [5] So he threw the silver pieces into the temple and withdrew, and went off and hanged himself.'

Acts 1:16~18 '"Men, brothers, it was necessary for the scripture to be fulfilled, which the holy spirit spoke beforehand by David's mouth about Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus, [17] because he had been numbered among us and he obtained a share in this ministry. [18] (This very man, therefore, purchased a field with the wages for unrighteousness, and pitching head foremost he noisily burst in his midst and all his intestines were poured out.'

Judas could have been one of the 144,000, but greed overtook him.

The 144,000 have to complete their earthly life course. These are the ones that will rule with Christ as kings and priests - the reason that they have been bought from the earth is that, in their heavenly role as kings .. they will know what it is to live as humans with weaknesses, so they will be especially understanding towards us during the 1,000 year reign as Armageddon survivors are gradually brought back to human perfection, free from 'sin', sickness, ageing and even death. By the end of the 1,000 years all persons living will be sinless and be able to stand before God on their own merit, without the intercession of Jesus. Every human will then be in the same condition physically and spiritually that Adam had. Then at the end of the 1,000 years .. Satan will be let loose (with his demons) for one final test.

Posted on 5 Mar 2012, 22:02:41 GMT
Then fact that we need 1,000 years to get back to human physical, mental and spiritual perfection .. shows how far human society has degenerated.

The question is - will it be worth it? The cost .. giving up a lifestyle that displeases God. In this present system of things, we are drawn out by our own desires and are at risk of pressure to give in to temptation .. including dishonesty, immorality, gambling, violence, drug abuse & smoking, fornication etc. The world's media portrays all these things as acceptable, entertaining and harmless. Hardly surprising as Satanic propaganda is very pursuasive and Satan and his demons want to drag as many humans into disobedience against God, knowing that they will lose their lives. By following in these things (which are bad for us) we are showing no respect for our own lives, or even God, who wants us to benefit ourselves. Because Jehovah's Witnesses value people's lives, they are prepared to follow Jesus command to 'collect' his sheep, who will be protected when God brings judgement against the wicked. Every individual, though, has their own decision to make when presented with the Bible message. No-one can be forced to accept life - however, the date of Armageddon has been set - humans don't know it.

Matthew 24:36~39 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. [37] For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. [38] For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; [39] and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."
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Initial post:  11 Sep 2010
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