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Is this the end of the UK?


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Showing 1-25 of 492 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 16 Oct 2012, 15:53:11 BST
ric_mac says:
In an effort to restore dignity and credibility to the politics forum, how about a political issue?

A referendum on the separation of England and Scotland will take place in the not-too-distant future. It's a situation that is full of political and social ramifications that will affect most contributors to this forum. It looks like the majority of those who will be affected (ie the English) will not have any formal means of expressing an opinion. In Scotland, it seems enfranchisement -- for the referendum, at least -- will be extended to young teenagers. There are currently shared responsibilities, services, resources, relationships and debts which would have to be apportioned, or which would change, in the event of a split. For many whose thinking is determined by their emotions (especially their negative emotions) this is an easy equation. There are many Scots -- and many English -- who would be delighted to bid farewell to their counterparts, believing them to be an irritating burden, an enemy, or possibly both. But what does it all mean in reality? What are the relative benefits of either path, to both nations? Will the relationship between the two countries improve or deteriorate? Does the process predict changes for future democracy? More referendums for other issues? A lower voting age? Fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster? The rebuilding of Hadrian's Wall?...

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 15:59:40 BST
The Fount believes that the UK is a better concept than either England, Scotland, Nothern Ireland or Wales...of course all nations are simply baby tribal stuff...nappy level...

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 16:29:49 BST
[Deleted by Amazon on 16 Jul 2013, 11:34:19 BST]

Posted on 16 Oct 2012, 16:38:20 BST
2old4925 says:
England's imperial empire is it's final death throes. Hopefully Scotland will leave the 'Union' and Wales will follow in due course. The social values of the different countries cannot be reconciled for much longer imho.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 16:51:26 BST
2old4925...yeah, yeah...great...more division...more tribalism...more thumpoes the chesty...boom..boom...boom...ug...ug...ug....!!! Engeeerrrllllllllllllllaand!

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 17:02:32 BST
2old4925 says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

Posted on 16 Oct 2012, 17:05:08 BST
ric_mac says:
< Why would the political and social ramifications affect most contributors on this forum? >

You kind of answer your own question with your own example, in that any negotiation to rejoin international bodies affects the populations of the negotiating countries. And, since many contributors to a forum on a .co.uk domain live in those countries they are similarly likely to be affected. In the circumstances you raise, a requirement to renegotiate membership of the EU *might* provide a stimulus for a further referendum to stay in or leave the organization (for example). I don't understand why you think that many posters *wouldn't* be affected unless you view those people strictly as isolated individuals with no connection to their wider community, or that they aren't from the countries which currently constitute the UK?

Posted on 16 Oct 2012, 18:00:07 BST
[Deleted by Amazon on 16 Jul 2013, 11:34:20 BST]

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 18:37:30 BST
Shrek says:
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Posted on 16 Oct 2012, 19:00:30 BST
Last edited by the author on 16 Oct 2012, 19:03:47 BST
S.R.J says:
Its no coincidence the Tories are starting to bang on about getting out of the Eu with a greater vigour, at the same time that Mr Unionist Cameron has acquiesced to the Scottish vote in 2014. Simples really, Scotland goes independant, Labour is never in office again,as it loses dozens of seats in Scotland, along with out of Europe -result Tory hegemony, and a move further to the right, fun really aint it.
S.R.J
Edit- if that doesn't affect you Dav45 god knows what does.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 19:17:05 BST
Shrek says:
Mr SRJ, You're fantasising:
* The Scots will never vote for independence.
* The nasty Tories love the Union and their grouse moors.
* Lots of Tories, including Dave, like the EU, it makes them loads a money - ask his in-laws.
* Unfortunately Labour does not depend on Scottish seats to hold power.

<<result>> you are talking out of a dark and deluded place.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 19:22:14 BST
S.R.J says:
I tend to think you may be right about the outcome of the vote...but hey, who knows. and as for being deluded about Labours reliance on the Scots vote , go do the maths. By the way, I dont often post , and your manner of replying, which tends to be a bit of a put down (oft used I'm afraid) seems unecessary...but feel free to have a go again, in one way or another, if you wish, I kinda expect it.
S.R.J

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 19:31:25 BST
Shrek says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 19:33:54 BST
S.R.J says:
Q.E.D
S.R.J

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 19:40:28 BST
Shrek says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 19:54:24 BST
gille liath says:
The polls suggest that the vote is the unionist parties' to lose - but let's not be under any illlusion that they *could* lose it if they play their cards wrong. And I don't think that would be good for anyone, probably not even the SniPs.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 20:15:45 BST
[Deleted by Amazon on 16 Jul 2013, 11:34:21 BST]

Posted on 16 Oct 2012, 20:16:19 BST
[Deleted by Amazon on 7 Feb 2015, 13:28:41 GMT]

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 20:19:58 BST
S.R.J says:
You could be right Dav45, its just the inevitable outcome in the interim that worries me, should it go that way.
S.R.J

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 20:22:08 BST
[Deleted by Amazon on 16 Jul 2013, 11:34:22 BST]

Posted on 16 Oct 2012, 20:22:41 BST
Why don't the English get a vote on England leaving the Union, or at least on whether we WANT Scotland to stay in.What would we call ourselves? "The Disunited Kingdom of parts of Great Britain not forgetting Northern Ireland" doesn't have quite the same ring to it. Perhaps we could save the Scots a referendum by renaming England as Lower Scotland.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 20:25:39 BST
[Deleted by Amazon on 16 Jul 2013, 11:34:23 BST]

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Oct 2012, 20:28:47 BST
[Deleted by Amazon on 16 Jul 2013, 11:34:24 BST]

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Oct 2012, 12:53:47 BST
ric_mac says:
< Well it wouldn't affect many posters on a personal level.

I drive up to Scotland now and then as a HGV driver and I doubt a `Checkpoint Charlie' would be put in place to search me and my vehicle if Scotland became independent.

So really the average man or woman in the street would hardly be affected [...] >

Dav, on a superficial level most people wouldn't notice any difference and of course it's unlikely anyone is going to set up border controls. However they would certainly be affected since change in political and financial structure would affect those areas of national life that I listed in my first post. The consequences would most certainly impact on many areas of life (perhaps positively, perhaps negatively), even if people didn't necessarily directly recognise it.

< [...] the average man or woman in the street [...] would to be honest quite uninterested if Scotland left the Union because it doesn't mean much to them in terms of financial loss or gain personally >

If they are uninterested then they are only giving superficial or emotional consideration to the issue. I have no agenda one way or the other, and there's no reason why Scots shouldn't determine their own future, but it is mistaken to believe there will not be financial and social consequences of some sort. It wouldn't mean the end of civilisation as we know it, but there might well be financial disadvantages on both sides of the border.

You're perfectly right, I think, in your assessment of the consequences to the major political parties.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Oct 2012, 13:17:01 BST
ric_mac says:
Hi Gille, I hope you're well and happy.

Personally I have no emotional attachment to the notion of Scotland being part of a united kingdom and if the Scots want to cut the painter I think they have a right to make that choice. However, I very much agree with your own opinion that the parting would be disadvantageous to both nations in real, rather than emotional, ways.

I'm genuinely interested in learning of any concrete, real-life benefits that would precipitate from the division that aren't simply expressions of an emotional stance. Enjoying the schadenfreude of the consequential discomfort to hated politicians is insufficient reason for a change and so is the opportunity to raise two fingers to an ancient enemy. That's just retrogressive and rather like cutting one's nose off to spite one's face.
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Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
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Initial post:  16 Oct 2012
Latest post:  21 Sep 2014

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