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Freedom of speech...they thought it was all over...it is now.


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Showing 1-24 of 24 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 1 Aug 2012 11:16:43 BDT
Seems that we cannot say or type anything that might cause offence. What has happened to our society that you cannot say certain things that are really just insensitive? The Tom Daly comment was not nice but not criminal. Simply an opinion.

Posted on 1 Aug 2012 11:31:17 BDT
Charlieost says:
Hi Simon. I have only had thoroughly offensive posts removed by the watcher. I sometimes go into thoroughly offensive as a change from utterly charming which can begin to grate a bit.

In the west and on this forum we only play at life really do we not? We do not have to carry water for miles or protect our families from marauding bands or dread the three AM knock on the door.

I missed your deleted post so cannot possibly comment on the reason for it being taken down. Perhaps the censor aimed for another one and hot yours instead.

W£e have a TD called Tim Dooly in Ireland. He is one of the last lot who got us into all this bother so he really should hang down his head.

Why we do not have fifty words for rain over here I do not know.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Aug 2012 11:32:18 BDT
J A R P says:
The internet is not an arena of free speech. It must, one way or another, have a censorship which the people who type things into it do not, themselves apply.

When people 'argue' on here, it is more often their Libido doing the talking than their ego. It is more often their alternate self 'speaking out' than their conscious mind.

People use false names.
They let rip with their subconscious notions.
They posture.

The time delay between posts, the absolutely unrhythmical exchange of ideas allows people to be convinced by a point of view, but then, to reposition themselves and to return to the debate with some platitude which wins all arguments, and mocks the convincing position.

Freedom of speech must be defended Against the internet type of discourse. When in a court room, a verdict is given, it is only after a set of regulations have been observed, and order maintained. That is how a freely decided outcome about what happened in an actual event comes about. On the internet, by contrast, it is more often the fictional personality who makes posts: the aim of posters is not to tell the truth and submit themselves to scrutiny. The aim is to heroically overcome all opposition, to cheat, and above all, to come away from a thread or website feeling better.

To make yourself feel better, follow the common tactics of posters on websites:

1. Always attack
2. Hold a principled (and dishonest) mantra like: 'I just question, and always seek evidence' especially when evidence is provided.
3. Let the logic of the libido take control: 'If someone presents something I don't like, I will demand something else'; 'If I find something to say that makes other people irrelevant to me, then say it as often as possible'.

This applies, it seems to me, to most 'posting' on the internet.

Posted on 1 Aug 2012 11:35:59 BDT
Freedom of speech is an illusion.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Aug 2012 19:32:05 BDT
gille liath says:
I don't think anyone has said it was criminal, although it is certainly repugnant. Don't cry before you're hurt...

Posted on 1 Aug 2012 20:25:51 BDT
Pipkin says:
You are all suspects now. What are you going to do about it?
John Pilger
26 April 2012

You are all potential terrorists. It matters not that you live in Britain, the United States, Australia or the Middle East. Citizenship is effectively abolished. Turn on your computer and the US Department of Homeland Security's National Operations Center may monitor whether you are typing not merely "al-Qaeda", but "exercise", "drill", "wave", "initiative" and "organisation": all proscribed words. The British government's announcement that it intends to spy on every email and phone call is old hat. The satellite vacuum cleaner known as Echelon has been doing this for years. What has changed is that a state of permanent war has been launched by the United States and a police state is consuming western democracy.

What are you going to do about it?

In Britain, on instructions from the CIA, secret courts are to deal with "terror suspects". Habeas Corpus is dying. The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that five men, including three British citizens, can be extradited to the US even though none except one has been charged with a crime. All have been imprisoned for years under the 2003 US/UK Extradition Treaty which was signed one month after the criminal invasion of Iraq. The European Court had condemned the treaty as likely to lead to "cruel and unusual punishment". One of the men, Babar Ahmad, was awarded 63,000 pounds compensation for 73 recorded injuries he sustained in the custody of the Metropolitan Police. Sexual abuse, the signature of fascism, was high on the list. Another man is a schizophrenic who has suffered a complete mental collapse and is in Broadmoor secure hospital; another is a suicide risk. To the Land of the Free, they go - along with young Richard O'Dwyer, who faces 10 years in shackles and an orange jump suit because he allegedly infringed US copyright on the internet.

As the law is politicised and Americanised, these travesties are not untypical. In upholding the conviction of a London university student, Mohammed Gul, for disseminating "terrorism" on the internet, Appeal Court judges in London ruled that "acts... against the armed forces of a state anywhere in the world which sought to influence a government and were made for political purposes" were now crimes. Call to the dock Thomas Paine, Aung San Suu Kyi, Nelson Mandela.

What are you going to do about it?

The prognosis is clear now: the malignancy that Norman Mailer called "pre fascist" has metastasized. The US attorney-general, Eric Holder, defends the "right" of his government to assassinate American citizens. Israel, the protege, is allowed to aim its nukes at nukeless Iran. In this looking glass world, the lying is panoramic. The massacre of 17 Afghan civilians on 11 March, including at least nine children and four women, is attributed to a "rogue" American soldier. The "authenticity" of this is vouched by President Obama himself, who had "seen a video" and regards it as "conclusive proof". An independent Afghan parliamentary investigation produces eyewitnesses who give detailed evidence of as many as 20 soldiers, aided by a helicopter, ravaging their villages, killing and raping: a standard, if marginally more murderous US special forces "night raid".

Take away the videogame technology of killing - America's contribution to modernity - and the behaviour is traditional. Immersed in comic-book righteousness, poorly or brutally trained, frequently racist, obese and led by a corrupt officer class, American forces transfer the homicide of home to faraway places whose impoverished struggles they cannot comprehend. A nation founded on the genocide of the native population never quite kicks the habit. Vietnam was "Indian country" and its "slits" and "gooks" were to be "blown away".

The blowing away of hundreds of mostly women and children in the Vietnamese village of My Lai in 1968 was also a "rogue" incident and, profanely, an "American tragedy" (the cover headline of Newsweek). Only one of 26 men prosecuted was convicted and he was let go by President Richard Nixon. My Lai is in Quang Ngai province where, as I learned as a reporter, an estimated 50,000 people were killed by American troops, mostly in what they called "free fire zones". This was the model of modern warfare: industrial murder.

Like Iraq and Libya, Afghanistan is a theme park for the beneficiaries of America's new permanent war: Nato, the armaments and hi-tech companies, the media and a "security" industry whose lucrative contamination is a contagion on everyday life. The conquest or "pacification" of territory is unimportant. What matters is the pacification of you, the cultivation of your indifference.

What are you going to do about it?

The descent into totalitarianism has landmarks. Any day now, the Supreme Court in London will decide whether the WikiLeaks editor, Julian Assange, is to be extradited to Sweden. Should this final appeal fail, the facilitator of truth-telling on an epic scale, who is charged with no crime, faces solitary confinement and interrogation on ludicrous sex allegations. Thanks to a secret deal between the US and Sweden, he can be "rendered" to the American gulag at any time. In his own country, Australia, prime minister Julia Gillard has conspired with those in Washington she calls her "true mates" to ensure her innocent fellow citizen is fitted for his orange jump suit just in case he should make it home. In February, her government wrote a "WikiLeaks Amendment" to the extradition treaty between Australia and the US that makes it easier for her "mates" to get their hands on him. She has even given them the power of approval over Freedom of Information searches - so that the world outside can be lied to, as is customary.

What are you going to do about it?

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Aug 2012 20:28:15 BDT
gille liath says:
What are we going to do about it? Maybe wait until something actually happens, instead of making a fuss about nothing.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Aug 2012 20:56:59 BDT
J A R P says:
The work of Pilger you quote is substantially about the USA, and US law at home, and its behaviour abroad.

These are the last acts of a liberal superpower. These injust acts and destruction of its own culture are, I believe, weak sporadic attempts to remain and appear strong, militarily together.

Pilger speaks of the subjection of Muslim suspects; Iranian nuclear weapons; Wikileaks; the foreign freedom fighters who have been (hypocritically) acclaimed.

The US, as Pilger himself has written, has blown all its prestige and power, and now is spiralling down. Several new centres of influence are emerging - Europe, the Far East and India, South America.

It is not as if, as Gilles says, 'nothing' is happening here. But what Pilger thinks is happening is not happening either. The US is not tightening its grip: it is losing it.

The best thing to do is to find new things for the future, based on the all that we have to go on: the past. Build something for the future on the basis of what lies all before us: the past.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Aug 2012 20:58:21 BDT
Pipkin says:
Heads down boys, bums up!

Posted on 1 Aug 2012 20:58:54 BDT
J A R P says:
The reason we are all potential terrorists is natural. We are all merely consumers and contributors to GDP. A person who has been dehumanised in this way, who does not belong to anything (in theory), is rootless and has no ideology. Therefore, he is a threat. He is unpredictable.

It is hard not to see, now, it really is Capitalism which is in control and in its senility if not its death agony.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Aug 2012 21:00:29 BDT
Last edited by the author on 1 Aug 2012 21:01:37 BDT
Pipkin says:
I agree Jason and hope with all my heart that you are right. But this isn't a ''fuss about nothing.'' We need to remain aware and vigilant........

Posted on 2 Aug 2012 02:25:15 BDT
Last edited by the author on 3 Aug 2012 02:09:02 BDT
Jango says:
Excellent post Margaret. I've been a fan of Pilger's since the 60.s, when he did "World in Action" on ITV. and was a collumnist with the "Mirror".
Without a doubt, one of the world's finest Investigative Journalists worthy of the name.

But!!....As he implies in that piece you quoted. One of the greatest threats facing Humanity today. (Which is all too apparent, judging by some of the posts on threads like this one) is "Apathy".
Commonly known as the Ostrich Syndrome.

"There are none so blind, as those who will not see".

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Aug 2012 10:02:09 BDT
Charlieost says:
I find it really annoying when the old chestnut about ostriches burying their heads in the sand is repeated yet again NeosBro. If people took the time to actually ascertain the facts they would find out that we take turns LISTENING WITH OUR EARS TO THE GROUND so that the rest of the flock can do their thang in peace without being disturbed by predators. We always have someone on duty looking around for the same reason, hence the long necks.

Being the butt of peoples sarky comments and so called amusing asides is not fun. So I will say it once again, WE DO NOT BURY OUR HEADS IN THE SAND, there's no flipping sands on the plains of Africa anyway.

So please do not continue to spread this myth. It really is quite upsetting.

Posted on 2 Aug 2012 23:39:40 BDT
Jango says:
Charlie,

"there's no flipping sands on the plains of Africa anyway."

Just where exactly do you suppose the Sahara Desert is?....
...Or the Namib Desert?...Or the Kalahari Desert?
....and what makes you think my comment was directed at you in particular?
Were you able to identify yourself in my comment perhaps?
It was, in fact, meant to be a generalization of many posters on the Forum as a whole.
Apologies!...I should have made that clearer.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Aug 2012 08:34:24 BDT
Seems so with you Simon. When I looked at your OP last night 0 of 4 people thought it did not add to the discussion. I find that odd because it looks to me your comments are relevant to what's happening in the big bad world. I gave you a 'yes' and you've since got another, so there's still hope for humanity. Have a nice day.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Aug 2012 08:53:06 BDT
"One of the greatest threats facing Humanity today is "Apathy".

Yep, some of us have more important things to think about in our daily business than worrying about whether someone somewhere may or may not be doing something at some time.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Aug 2012 09:49:35 BDT
gille liath says:
And one of the reasons people are apathetic is that they're constantly being bombarded with things to be anxious about, some of which are spurious.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Aug 2012 10:11:41 BDT
Beloved...thank you.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Aug 2012 12:34:45 BDT
Charlieost says:
Oh Neost Brother. We do not live in the desert. Just as we do not bury our heads in the sand. Any more of this and I will be looking at taking out an injunction on behalf of my brothers, sisters and chicks.

Posted on 4 Aug 2012 14:43:53 BDT
It is claimed that Beeb viewers are mad as hell at interviewers insensitivity towards losing Team Greater Donkeyland athletes. What next?

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Aug 2012 16:46:04 BDT
15 -1 and Deal or No Deal in the same studio with George Galloway and Timmy Mallet hosting?

Posted on 7 Aug 2012 02:51:58 BDT
Spin says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Aug 2012 11:43:38 BDT
easytiger says:
"Scared to death" by C.Booker makes interesting reading.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Aug 2012 22:29:47 BDT
gille: I know you don't like the 'four horsemen' stuff, but they are on their way - approaching fast. Still, there's hope in your God, whom I think is my God (you're not the exclusivist sort of RC are you?) - everyone's God if they but knew it. It all ends well.
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Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
Participants:  12
Total posts:  24
Initial post:  1 Aug 2012
Latest post:  8 Aug 2012

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