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Showing 76-92 of 92 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 17:12:31 BDT
Defenceman says:
Simon DHB,

'David, you must leave your binary world, your simple world.'

You mean the world where real science is carried out and results are analysed, not your fantasy world where water cures all?

't is not a simple case of works/doesn't work.'

Yes, it is. Studies either show the effects being looked for or they don't. In the case of homeopathy they don't. Placebo may well work, but that's not the same thing at all, since not all placebo is homeopathy, although the reverse is true.

'You also need to be much clearer in your understanding of the word "work".'

I've not used the term, so why do I want to clarify my understanding?

'Homeopathy "works" in the sense that many people get benefit from it. That = 25-30% of those who use it. It "works" with no negative side effects. Does it have any effect beyond the my opinion 97% no...3% yes.'

I'm equally sure that sugar pills dispensed by a doctor are as effective provided the patient is told the pills will be cure them or alleviate their symptoms. However, that doesn't mean the pills do anything for the patient. That's just the human mind at work. Homeopathy is no different. It's more of a con than insurance, since there is at least some tangible benfit to insurance when one of the risks that is covered actually arises and the policy pays out.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 19:17:12 BDT
I.N....when your position crumbles...act with grace....rise above your ego...don't get stuck in trap of 'being right'.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 19:18:35 BDT
aboratory studies Experiments involving whole living animals have been carried out to investigate the action of homeopathic medicines. This field of `in vivo' research is always controversial, but it allows the interaction between homeopathic medicines and living bodies to be examined under highly controlled conditions. The results of such studies have shown that,

The homeopathic medicine self-nosode (self-nosode = homeopathic medicine prepared from diseased tissue from the individual being treated) is as effective as antibiotics in treating urinary infection in rats[1]

In this blinded* study rats were split into three treatment groups receiving antibiotics, homeopathic self-nosode or homeopathic Phosphorus; a fourth group was left untreated. The results showed that both homeopathic medicines were effective at reducing the level of infection (assessed by measuring the size of bacterial colonies). No change in bacterial levels was seen in the untreated rats, whilst the reduction in bacterial levels achieved by the treatments were: antibiotics 33%, Self-nosode 39% and Phosphorus 22%. * which treatment each group received was concealed to minimise bias. Homeopathic Thyroxine can slow down metamorphosis of tadpoles into frogs[2]

The hormone thyroxine is known to influence the rate of metamorphosis in frogs. In this study tadpoles were exposed to either conventionally prepared thyroxine, homeopathically prepared Thyroxine or an inactive control liquid. Standard thyroxine was found to stimulate metamorphosis, causing the tadpoles to turn into adult frogs faster. The homeopathic Thyroxine had a clear but opposite effect - significantly slowing down metamorphosis. These results were replicated by five separate laboratories in Austria and confirmed by the results of similar experiments carried out by an independent team in Brazil (Guedes JR et al, Homeopathy, 2004; 93(3): 132-7).The species of frog used was Rana temporaria and the ultramolecular thyroxine used was in a 10-30 dilution. More recently the team in Brazil found that a homeopathic preparation made from frog thyroid glands used in a similar way could also alter the rate of metamorphosis. Homeopathic Mercury Chloride 15c can reduce mortality from mercury chloride poisoning in mice by 40%[3]

In nine high-quality experiments, all mice were given a lethal injection of mercury chloride; one group was also given daily injections of Mercury Chloride 15c (both before and after the toxic injection) while the other control group was left untreated. The number of rats who had died by day 10 after toxic injection was significantly lower in the group given Mercury Chloride 15c compared with the untreated group. A meta-analysis* of all nine trials by Linde et al. showed that Mercury Chloride 15c treatment reduced mortality was by 40%. This is an example of a toxicology study. Various types of toxicology studies have been used to investigate UHDs**, but all involve the same basic concept; an animal is given a poisonous substance in its usual form and in UHD form so that any interaction between the two can be observed e.g. a change in how the toxin affects the animal or how the animal excretes it. * a statistical technique used to analyse the combined results of multiple studies to generate a more meaningful overall result ** ultra-high dilution such that no molecules of the original substance are left, prepared in the same way as homeopathic medicines

Veterinary homeopathy research Randomised control trials (RCTs) ((RCTs) = Considered by some researchers to be the `gold standard' of research methods for determining whether a treatment is effective. Patients are randomly allocated to receive the experimental treatment or be in a comparison group.) have demonstrated the efficacy of non-individualised homeopathic prescribing under controlled experimental conditions. For example:

The homeopathic medicine Coli 30K can be an effective alternative to antibiotics for diarrhoea in piglets

A rigorous research study by the Biological Farming Systems Group at Wageningen University in the Netherlands suggests that the homeopathic medicine Coli 30K is effective in preventing diarrhoea caused by the bacterium Esherichia coli in piglets. This condition is of concern to commercial farmers as it leads to decreased body weight and increased mortality rates. As concern grows about the threat to human health from antibiotics in the food chain, such findings can be considered of particular importance for both animal and human welfare.* To read a synopsis of this trial by the European Committee for Homeopathy click here. Abstract *Camerlink I, Ellinger L, Bakker EJ, Lantinga EA (2010). Homeopathy as replacement to antibiotics in the case of Escherichia coli diarrhoea in neonatal piglets. Homeopathy, 99; 57-62.

The homeopathic medicine Sepia 200c can reduce the rate of ovarian cysts and postpartum (postpartum = after giving birth) complications in dairy cows[4]

In this scientifically rigorous study, cows were randomly given either Sepia 200c or placebo on days 14 or 21 after delivering their calves. It was found that the 101 cows given Sepia 200c had significantly fewer postpartum complications than the control group. The study also found that the number of ovarian cysts in the Sepia-treated group dropped from 38% to 12% over the three-year study period (an incidence rate of 10% being considered normal for dairy herds).1 1. Williamson AV et al. A trial of Sepia 200: Prevention of anoestrus problems in dairy cows. Br Homoeopathic J, 1995; 84 (1): 14-20 The homeopathic medicine Healwell-VT was found to be at least as effective as antibiotic treatment for mastitis in cows[5]

5. Varshney JP, Naresh R. Comparative efficacy of homeopathic and allopathic systems of medicine in the management of clinical mastitis of Indian dairy cows. Homeopathy, 2005; 94: 81-5 Abstract A combination homeopathic medicine was found to be as effective as antibiotic treatment for infectious diseases in pigs [6]

A high percentage of pigs being fattened in intensive livestock farms become ill, suffering mainly from diseases of the respiratory tract. Low-dose antibiotic metaphylaxis* is routinely used in an attempt to reduce the incidence of disease. In this study which involved 1440 piglets, homeopathic metaphylaxis was found to be more effective than placebo at reducing the incidence of disease, and as effective as the low-dose antibiotics. The routine use of low-dose antibiotic metaphylaxis in intensive farming has lead to increasing problems of antibiotic resistance, side-effects in the animals and antibiotic residues in the food chain. If this study could be replicated to confirm the results, the combination of Cuprum met D4, Drosera D1, Ipecacuanha D3, Ferrum phosphoricum D4 and Nux vomica D4 used would offer a safer, more effective alternative. * a preventative treatment given when the individual is already exposed to risk of disease Outcome studies (which observe the effectiveness of treatments in a real-life setting) have demonstrated the effectiveness of homeopathy in veterinary practice. Below are a few examples of their findings: Treatment by a homeopathic vet is effective for arthritis and epilepsy in dogs[7]:

A pilot outcome study involving the treatment of 767 individual patients by a team of seven UK homeopathic vets was published in 2007. Sufficient data was collected in 539 cases and showed that after homeopathic treatment 79.8% of cases improved, 6.1% deteriorated and 11.7% showed no change. Strongly positive outcomes were achieved in the homeopathic treatment of arthritis and epilepsy in dogs and (in smaller numbers) in atopic eczema, gingivitis and hyperthyroidism in cats. Limitations of the study: As this was a data-collection study observing usual practice, it was not randomised, blinded or placebo-controlled. The homeopathic medicine Caulophyllum 30c can reduce stillbirth in pigs[8]:

In this placebo-controlled study Caulophyllum 30c significantly reduced the rate of stillbirth in a test group of 10 pigs (p value* = 0.0018). The pigs who received placebo presented 103 normal births and 27 stillbirths (20.8%) compared with 104 normal births and 12 stillbirths (10.3%) in those given Caulophyllum 30c. Limitations of the study: small test group and not blinded. * A number from zero to one which describes the likelihood (or probability) that a result could have occurred by chance

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 19:44:07 BDT
H. M. Sykes says:
And let's not forget that many medicines are plant-derived. Salicylic acid (aka Asprin) was originally a pain killer derived by chewing willow tree bark. I think that everyone needs to keep an open mind.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 19:50:16 BDT
Absolutely...too many on here have made their minds the so called medical experts who used 'science' to prove stress and excess stomach acid caused known to be wrong and it is a bacteria.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 20:07:06 BDT
Defenceman says:
Simon DHB,

'Your long tedious post quoting from the Society of Homeopaths'

What exactly is this supposed to prove? It's a study carried out by the Society of Homeopaths - scarcely an unbiased body. You might as well claim the bible as a 'proof' of the existence of god.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 20:30:46 BDT
Ian says:
But that's not homeopathy either; there's an actual active ingredient as there are in many herbal remedies (the ones that work). My (much repeated) objection to homeopathy is that many of those purchasing remedies or paying homeopaths for a consultation are unaware that the chemical named on the label of the bottle is not present in the bottle.

Too many people do not know the difference between herbal medicines (some of which may work), supplements (poorly regulated, but again some of which work) and homeopathic remedies (as Simon posted there is "insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition").

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 20:36:59 BDT
Ian says:
Yes Simon, you're quite right; medicine sometimes gets things wrong therefore it's OK to just make stuff up and declare it to be true.

That's pretty much what Samuel Hahnemann did when he invented homeopathy; a system of treatment based on doing absolutely nothing (due to a misunderstanding of the mechanism of vaccines and a lack of knowledge of molecules at the time it was an entirely understandable mistake). In the 18th and early 19th centurues doing absolutely nothing was usually better than conventional medical treatment. That is no longer the case (although there are times when conventional treatment is still much the same as doing nothing and homeopaths like to jump on these conditions in order to demonstrate that their useless treatments are as good as any other useless treatment).

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 21:08:25 BDT
I.N. You make a valid point and you do it with semantic grace and verbal fluidity.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 21:09:21 BDT
David Grime you make a useless point and you express yourself with the linguistic skills of a four year old.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 21:16:39 BDT
Ian says:
Thankyou Simon.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jun 2013 22:07:06 BDT
Defenceman says:
Simon DHB,

'David Grime you make a useless point and you express yourself with the linguistic skills of a four year old.'

Since you clearly didn't understand it that must make you a two year old. I'd have thought that anybody with just a single brain cell would have understood - sad to see where lack of education has left you.

Posted on 18 Jun 2013 13:52:48 BDT
Winston Churchill, who I was reliably informed suffered from manic depressive psychosis, or bipolar disorder as perhaps is the equivalent now, famously enjoyed consuming alcohol. It's fairly obvious this can't have worked in treating his condition as alcohol is a depressant and also tends to induce mania. However he always claimed that alcohol had given him more than it had taken away, so I think this echoes Simon's point about something being beneficial rather than working as such.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jun 2013 16:14:33 BDT
Oh dear.

Posted on 17 Sep 2013 00:13:12 BDT
After you get a TT99 on your license do you need to declare the points which led to the TT99?

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Sep 2013 00:17:28 BDT
What's a TT99?

Posted on 17 Sep 2013 00:18:12 BDT
Last edited by the author on 17 Sep 2013 00:19:13 BDT
Disqualified for over 3 months under totting up procedure.
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Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
Participants:  11
Total posts:  92
Initial post:  15 Jun 2013
Latest post:  17 Sep 2013

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