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Indie books far from becoming extinct


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Showing 126-150 of 247 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 17:00:56 GMT
Last edited by the author on 18 Jan 2013 17:03:07 GMT
Tinca says:
Wow, thanks Anita.

But all that is required for the pompous to prosper is for no-one to disagree, even stupid people.

Posted on 18 Jan 2013 17:11:45 GMT
It's really quite sad . . . *Some* can chat along here, agreeing and disagreeing about various points. Others (they know who they are) behave like they are in a school playground. I notice that every comment made by Shelagh is down-voted. I also notice that I have attracted a 'fan club'.

Why bother to dis people anonymously?

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 17:17:49 GMT
Tinca, if anybody has shown their stupidity on this thread - it's you.

You have continually adopted the *standard* Lit-fic writers stand-point. "It doesn't sell because *everybody* is stupid." Girlfriend, I took three 'O' levels at the age of 14. I got an "A" in English Lit. I get it. I just think it's b*ll*cks.

Posted on 18 Jan 2013 17:29:25 GMT
Ethereal says:
Ah yes, the Lurkers! (Watch me get negged for this.)

It's mostly one of two things: disagreement with what's being said whether or not it actually adds to the discussion, or dislike of particular posters, by people who may or may not be participating. It also works the other way, of course, so I guess evens out in the long run.

And drawing attention to it eggs them on even more!

On a broader front, I've never understood why some take disagreements personally. With some folk it appears if you're not with them at all times you must be against them forever more, instead of taking each point on its merits. As you say it's all pretty anonymous so how anyone can bear grudges is beyond me, just switch the thing off if stuff gets to you that much. I don't think forums are for everyone.

Posted on 18 Jan 2013 17:45:09 GMT
carocaro says:
Some just like a good argumental discussion.
However, literary fiction is NOT a genre

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 17:47:55 GMT
Frank Mundo says:
"It doesn't sell because *everybody* is stupid."

I haven't seen anyone on this thread make this claim.

Posted on 18 Jan 2013 18:37:39 GMT
carocaro says:
People can be unaware Frank, and uneducated, and unkind, and all the uns we can convene but luckily it never comes as an everybody or evryone and I have a rule of thumb for that other word...stupid is as stupid does;)

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 18:41:16 GMT
Frank Mundo says:
Exactly, and if anyone actually made that claim, I would call them a snob as well. I just didn't see anyone doing that on this thread.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 18:47:45 GMT
Tinca says:
Michael, despite your A level you don't seem to be reading very carefully. Look back at the previous posts; pretty sure I was the one being called stupid for disagreeing with someone who states unquestionable truths (that's you).

I wasn't calling anyone stupid - just pompous, which is the splendid kind of word found in literary fiction.

Posted on 18 Jan 2013 18:53:28 GMT
carocaro says:
Children children...no one is stupid on here, just look at the posts. Heated and maybe strongly opinioned but no more...kiss and make up then find something else to heat up as its darned cold here tonight:)

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 18:53:40 GMT
Anita says:
A bit egotistical, Tinca. If I call someone stupid, normally it's myself. If I *think* someone really stupid, there's no point saying so.

And - Ethereal: quote Vito Corleone, everything's personal. Sorry for repeating the quote, but I like it

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 19:11:02 GMT
Tinca says:
Hello Anita,

now I'm confused as well as egotistical - do you think I'm stupid for disagreeing with Michael?

I think I am, but do you think I am?

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 19:17:53 GMT
I Readalot says:
Tinca - as far as I am concerned anyone who calls someone stupid for daring to disagree with them is, well, stupid. Michael does not like literary fiction, that is perfectly clear but many readers do. not because we are snobs or believe ourselves to be intellectually superior but simply because we enjoy reading it and get something out of reading it. One persons pretentious twaddle is another persons masterpiece, it would be a sad and boring world if everyone agreed.

Posted on 18 Jan 2013 19:35:48 GMT
Ethereal says:
Sounds like a passage from Ronald Laing's Knots -
Jill: You think I'm stupid.
Jack: I don't think you're stupid.
Jill: Then I must be stupid to think you think I'm stupid, or you're lying and I'm stupid to believe you. Either way I'm stupid.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 19:55:49 GMT
Last edited by the author on 18 Jan 2013 19:56:46 GMT
gille liath says:
No it isn't - but it's all you're likely to get out of him. :)

I missed the start of this, but the difference between literary and pop fiction is as obvious as the difference between pop and classical music - to anyone who cares to see it. And in the same way, there are good and bad examples of each, and few borderline cases where it's hard to say which it is. But that doesn't invalidate the distinction in the slightest.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 20:04:03 GMT
Ethereal says:
"and few borderline cases where it's hard to say which it is"

Classical Gas, loved it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeHgNqbdBKs

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 20:05:12 GMT
Anita says:
Sorry, Tinca, I can't say if you are stupid for disagreeing with Michael. That's for you to decide. And I do think I am for the very same reason, yes. It's really not a discussion when someone never accepts your arguments, just uses them to emphasize his own points.

For Michael: not that I'm going to say more than that in public, just this: I did try some of your book. Seems to me you are a bit like that proverbial shoemaker who goes barefoot. What you present nicely in theory, not necessarily is used successfully in practice.

That's for you from a theoretically potential reader who has never every got a single A for English literature, not even once

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 20:05:30 GMT
carocaro says:
I Readalot, forgive me but I truly can't see why people use it as a genre when it isn't. Literary Fiction is as defined but can be good or bad.
I often think people mix it with contemporary fiction I really do.
The other's think it something it's not which makes it pretentious twaddle for sure.
Good literary fiction can be a masterpiece
Bad literary fiction can be removed by Amazon and returned to writer to be made literate.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 20:45:14 GMT
I Readalot says:
I agree that it isn't a genre, it often crosses boundaries and mixes them up, reimagines our ideas of what makes, for example a crime or romance novel. It includes authors as different as David Mitchell and David Lodge, Hilary Mantell and Margaret Atwood. Life of Pi (a Booker winner) has recently had a resurgence in popularity due to the film but how many current readers are aware it is literary? I read literary novels but there are a lot of authors I don't get on with at all. It isn't necessarily hard to read either. I just think that condemning literary fiction out of hand as some people appear to do is short sighted. There is definitely a lot around that I consider pretentious twaddle but if someone else finds something worthwhile in it who am I to say they are wrong?

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 20:46:26 GMT
Ethereal says:
If it's literary encompassing all that's been discussed, then it surely can't be bad? But then you get into who defines good and bad ... so in my state of confusion I'm inclined to agree. As I said before, I don't think books should be marketed as literary because that's for others to decide, whether they be bog-standard readers or academics and preferably both.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 21:42:28 GMT
I Readalot says:
They aren't really marketed as literary novels it is more a case of the authors being known as literary novelists. When you hear that someone like Hilary Mantell has a new book out you know it is going to be literary, Wolf Hall and Bring up the Bodies are marketed as historical fiction. A Handmaids Tale, Oryx and Crake and The Year of the Flood by Atwood are dystopian, however some like David Mitchells Cloud Atlas are impossible to pigeon hole, part historical, part contemporary, part futuristic, it is classed as experimental but doesn't fit into any genre but again he is known as a literary novelist.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Jan 2013 22:01:46 GMT
carocaro says:
Well to be honest I Readalot, it's laughed at at our uni English department and a few others. As I said before literary fiction has a definition of any creative work of literature, but it is then classified in genres even cross genres or loosely linked ones. The difference is for example Life of Pi, as you say a book first, is classed as good quality literary fiction as would be Hemingway, Faulks, Rushdie, et al. These have been praised oh and criticised even then, by literary critics and University English Departments throughout the land as good quality and read, discussed and analysed.

Then compare it to, forgive me to one Craig Williams who had his hundreds of poor quality, but still literary fiction, removed by Amazon after complaints of literature standards that were so poor they bordered upon illiterate. This is probably the worst example of literary fiction I can come up with and I use it to illustrate. IF..and I mean IF a literary critic were to look at one of his pieces of lit fic it would be crucified or totally ignored as unworthy to comment which is possibly the worse fate.
I think it is a very misunderstood term.

Posted on 19 Jan 2013 01:29:39 GMT
[Deleted by Amazon on 19 Jan 2013 04:13:21 GMT]

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 07:09:38 GMT
Last edited by the author on 19 Jan 2013 07:40:57 GMT
I Readalot says:
Definitely misunderstood, I haven't come across the author you mentioned but I have read some bad LF over the years which is why I generally stick to trad published when it comes to LF.

When it comes down to it I just want to read well written books in a variety of genres. I choose on the basis of 'does this story appeal to me' then read a bit to get an idea of the prose style, the fact of it being literary or not doesn't really come into my decision to buy or not to buy.

Posted on 19 Jan 2013 08:40:53 GMT
Last edited by the author on 19 Jan 2013 08:41:12 GMT
carocaro says:
Oh dear Michael, they Ammy, now added certain previously unknown words that were formerly British to their banned list. So for expletives it is initial letter and stars and not any other so I was told by a very nice Ammy lady when I crossed the boundary recently. Certain food dishes in the UK come out as no no's too...savory meat dish with peas = f****** has different meaning and a few other things too!

However, I got quite a bit of it first. I agree that if you don't know what a persons qualifications are or aren't it is wrong to denigrate and make accusations. However, I would like to say I have discussed work in depth with people who have doctorates and I have been surprised that they didn't have further analytical insight than showed and likewise I've talked with people who have shown amazing insight and analysis of a piece of literary fiction who haven't any formal qualifications but perhaps plenty of first and second hand life experience. Second hand through books, plays, TV, and film...and of course books usually come first.

With indie/SP novels it is hit and miss. Plus there are a lot of charlatans trying to make a quick buck or name for themselves. I heard there are also education programmes in the prison system that encourage offenders to develop literacy and numeracy skills as well as practical skills, some educators encourage either a reflective life story or a piece of fiction...any genre covered that is legal and some to SP on the net! Again if it is good quality fine but there are things published that some wouldn't class as literate. I wish there was a better filter system. We the purchaser, whether freebie or not are the filter system.
If reading material is flawed from a literacy point of view, whether grammatically, spelling, punctuation then return it to Amazon with location numbers as evidence and they return it to writer for correction.
I Readalot, I have had novel attempts I have put aside, though I try to persevere past the first few chapters as things can and do improve usually. However, I have found some gems too. The name has nothing to do with a current piece of well marketed but not such good quality content...Chris Gray, or CM Gray, writes for older children and YA but has two books that cross that age range and adults are enjoying his stories too. He has had some editing done since first published and now are good and readable. I read both his Shadowland, which is about the post Roman era, Dark Ages and the rise of the Pendragon name. Historically, socially, geographically etc so good. Then his magical quest story The Flight of The Griffin, again I read it as an adult and loved the richness of setting, characters, boating and magical aspects too. I had been praising his work as an Indie SP but I noticed he has been long listed by The Times for this years children's literary prize. It will be interesting to see if he makes the cut. Down to within 21 from over a 1000 applicants and chosen by children's literary specialists say much though.

Two other finds included Elli Fitz, and Jan Ruth. I like the novel No Heaven, despite US language conventions and I have helped with some editing input. I liked the thought and explanation that links religious ideas and scientific knowledge to explain God and life which makes more sense than dogma and doctrine spouted without evidence, logic and reason based on texts of the past that tried to explain the reason for mankind and the world they lived in and match it to today's knowledge and world which doesn't fit. It has a thriller packet to wrap it in but it was the essence that drew me.
Others who have written good stories the Jackie Luben's books, Lexi Revellian, MT McGuire, even the zany reads that are slightly Goon reminding that Will Macmillan Jones writes have appeal and good story lines. Some SP and others are with smaller presses but have difficulty getting noticed.
I spouted enough.
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Discussion in:  fiction discussion forum
Participants:  12
Total posts:  247
Initial post:  10 Jan 2013
Latest post:  25 Jan 2013

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