Sir Walter Scott Stated : "Until this moment I thought and felt that there was no God nor heaven nor hell but I now know that I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty"
Infidel Adams Screamed: "I am lost, lost lost. I am dammed, dammed forever"
Infidel Adams agony was so great that he tore the hair from his head as he passed away.
Voltaire, Real name: Francois Marie Arouet Cried out: "Oh Christ, Oh Lord Jesus, I must now die abandoned by God and man"
Voltaire's condition had become so frightful that his infidel associates could no longer be at his bed side.
In Votaire's last illness he sent for Dr. Tronchin. When the Doctor came, he found Voltaire in the greatest agony, exclaiming with the utmost horror -- "I am abandoned by God and man." Voltaire then said, "Doctor, I will give you half of what I am worth, if you will give me six months' life." The doctor answered, "Sir, you cannot live six weeks." Voltaire replied, "Then I shall go to hell, and you will go with me!" and soon after expired
After Voltaire's death, the nurse who attended him during his final days stated: "For all the wealth in Europe, I will never again, nurse an atheist in his dying moments"
Charles 11th. King of France: "What blood, what murders, what evil councils I have followed, I am lost, lost, I see it well now!"
Thomas Paine Screamed: " Stay with me, stay with me for Gods sake stay with me, I can not bare to be alone as I must now face the righteous judge of the Universe"
Nothing could calm Thomas Painne's screams or subdue his fears and with his dying breath he sat bolt upright and shouted: "My God, my God" then he dropped back down dead.
Mirabeau, noted French statesman Said: "O Christ, O Jesus Christ, Give me more morphine that I might not have to think of my impending judgment and of eternity separated from the creator "
Kay Shouted at the top of his voice: "Hell, hell, hell, hell"
Kay's screams became so terrible and so unbearable the family fled the house until all was quite and Kay was dead.
Frances Newport With clinical self Analysis, stated: "What argument is there that will assist me against the matters of fact? Do I assert that there is no hell when I feel one in my own heart? Do I try to affirm that there is no God as I draw closer to his wrath? That there is a hell, I am certain as I have already received an inheritance of hell, in part, in my own soul"
To a friend at his bed side he stated: " Oh, that I was to lie a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God, and to be united to Him again! But it is a fruitless wish. Millions of millions of years would bring me no nearer to the end of my torments than one poor hour."
In Frances Newport's final moments he groaned and then screamed, "Oh Oh, eternity, eternity, eternity! forever and forever! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell" the great suffering and pains of hell for all eternity, millions and millions of years will bring me no closer to the righteous God whom I have denied all my life"
Sir Walter Scott was a Christian, a Protestant Episcopalian to be exact.
Voltaire was a Deist as was Thomas Paine.
There was no Charles 11th of France.
I don't know to which Mirabeau you refer. Is it Honoré Gabriel Riqueti, or his father Victor de Riqueti?
Who is Kay? For that matter who is Frances Newport?
Why would i care what they said on their deathbed?
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M.James hello,
I notice that you are an admirer of Ray Comfort, who is both a liar and deluded - and just because he lies and you share his delusion, does not mean that it is okay for you write something so inaccurate. Try and get your facts correct before posting such nonsense.
Oh, and the fear of hell has no hold on atheists - we do not believe such a place exists.
Sorry for any errors .. I am taking your word for it ... you may be wrong... I mean your are an atheist ... anyway I apologize for any errors
I may not believe in gravity ... but is true all the same ... and when I step off a building shouting I do not believe in gravity... it is a myth ... I will quickly become a believer ... sadly to late
Your attack on Ray comfort is uncalled for and a lie .. and who said I was his admirer? This is just you wanting to fit into the little box you have assigned me ... I do not agree with every thing Ray does and says but when it comes to refuting atheism he is spot on ... It is easy to see from your attempted insults I hit a sore point ... then again this will be one of the the things which your conscience will keep bringing to your memory when you are burning in hell ... asking you over and over again why you did not believe .... Hell is a myth ... now step off the building .... fortunately, I will not see you in hell
No deathbed statement or perceived conversion is evidence for the existence of God. The most that could be said of it is that it is evidence that people are afraid of dying. Who'd have thought...
No-one is denying the comfort that some gain from religion, only that there is evidence for the truth of those religions.
-"Sorry for any errors .. I am taking your word for it ... you may be wrong... I mean your are an atheist ... anyway I apologize for any errors"
Apology accepted, and me being an atheist has nothing to do with whether something is true or not. That is known as the genetic fallacy. You could also have checked these facts yourself. Being sceptical of what you are told is wiser than blind acceptance.
-"I may not believe in gravity ... but is true all the same ... and when I step off a building shouting I do not believe in gravity... it is a myth ... I will quickly become a believer ... sadly to late."
Gravity is testable and observable - hell is not. Nor is the idea of a hell universal in religion.
-"Your attack on Ray comfort is uncalled for and a lie .. and who said I was his admirer?"
My description of Ray Comfort is accurate. He denies the facts of evolution and advocates the idea of intelligent design (which is a load of religious crap). He exorcises stuffed toys (which is delusional) and is also famous for his 'banana argument' which is quite ignorant of history and very, very stupid indeed.
I called you an admirer. The reason i wrote that is because you have posted his website address on several threads here. If you do not admire him, why are you promoting his website and in doing so endorsing his views?
-"This is just you wanting to fit into the little box you have assigned me ..."
Not at all. But if you want to see someone categorising people incorrectly, i suggest you read your own posts.
-"I do not agree with every thing Ray does and says but when it comes to refuting atheism he is spot on ..."
Bollocks. He is just as mistaken about atheism as you are.
The following are copied from his website;
"* An atheist is someone who pretends that there is no God." "* Atheism is intellectual suicide." "* An atheist has no scientific creditably, because his "nothing created everything" violates the basic laws of science."
Atheism -as has been explained to you repeatedly- means 'without theism'. In other words, atheists are without gods. Any further beliefs are tied in with humanism, secularism or another philosophy. Atheism has no dogma or any other tenets.
-"It is easy to see from your attempted insults I hit a sore point ..."
Don't flatter yourself. I just dislike it when people write something inaccurate and present it as truth.
-"then again this will be one of the the things which your conscience will keep bringing to your memory when you are burning in hell ... asking you over and over again why you did not believe .... Hell is a myth ... now step off the building .... fortunately, I will not see you in hell."
Empty threats. I have no fear of mystical nonsense and coercion doesn't endear your god to me. Try providing some evidence for your beliefs.
"Your attack on Ray comfort is uncalled for and a lie .. "
Rubbish. Comfort is either a liar or an imbecile. Or possibly both. He's certainly one of the standing jokes of the internet. Your mealy-mouthed and ungracious 'apology' when you are caught recycling obvious nonsense without so much as a thought to the accuracy of the drivel you are spouting, is in danger of placing you, albeit in a minor way, in the same categories. I'm only surprised that you didn't add the traditional fundie lie about Darwin and Lady Hope.
What is all of this talk of hellfire supposed to do? Scare us into belief? It does a better job of exposing some of your own psychological basis for your bizarre beliefs. Your mind must be a frightening place. I pity you.
My personal favourite from Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron is the crocoduck. I laughed so hard! If you haven't seen it, find the clip on YouTube. You couldn't write comedy like. At you, Ray, not with you.
I think he's on top form with his street preaching. The "Have you ever told a lie?... What does that make you?" stuff. According to Ray's logic if you do something even just once you can be defined and labelled by it. I wonder if Ray has ever masturbated*?
This looks like mainly a list of urban myths/ slanders against well-known people who disbelieved in conventional religion. e.g. www.positiveatheism.org has this to say: One conversion-lie that is well documented is the alleged deathbed conversion of Thomas Paine. We have Robert Green Ingersoll's brilliant writeup on this, "A Vindication of Thomas Paine," in our Historical Section under Ingersoll and under Paine. It begins: "Last June in San Francisco, I offered a thousand dollars in gold -- not as a wager, but as a gift -- to any one who would substantiate the absurd story that Thomas Paine died in agony and fear, frightened by the clanking chains of devils. I also offered the same amount to any minister who would prove that Voltaire did not pass away as serenely as the coming of the dawn." See "A Vindication of Thomas Paine" Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9725.htm
:D Hilarious. I love it when religious zealots meet the sharp wit of a well informed scientist. Such a logical and well structured deconstruction of that which many would simply meet in kind. Good show, Mr(s). Murray
Hi again M.James, always a pleasure, hope you are having a delightful weekend.
Your original post shows no intention to entering any form of reasoned debate whatsoever. I would like to see your reference sources, although a quick Google makes it quite clear where you have got them from. Let's look at a couple of examples:
Voltaire wasn't even an atheist, he was just mistaken as one. As for the deathbed quotes, I'm going to trust Wikipedia over 'Born Again' websites: "When asked on his deathbed by a priest to renounce the devil and turn to God, he is alleged to have replied, "Now is no time to be making new enemies". His last words are said to have been, "For God's sake, let me die in peace.""
Who was Charles 11th, King of France? Apologies, that was rhetoric (there was no Charles 11th, King of France) a quick Google brings your quote up attributed to Charles 4th or Charles 9th, on Born Again websites again, so we don't really need to worry which King Charles of France we're even talking about. So let's pick Charles 9th as an arbitary King Charles of France, and check what Wikipedia (as a neutral source) has to say: "Charles called for Henry of Navarre, embraced him, and said, "Brother, you are losing a good friend. Had I believed all that I was told, you would not be alive. But I always loved you... I trust you alone to look after my wife and daughter. Pray God for me. Farewell."
Thomas Paine wasn't an atheist. I'm not goig to look up the deathbed quote because your phrase "I must now face the righteous judge of the Universe" stinks of Born Again Christian sanctimonious drivel ... I don't believe for one minute that he somehow decided to deliver the old 'righteous judge of the universe' quote on his deathbed.
I was interested in this Frances Newport chap, but couldn't find anything.
You should be grateful that the original post has generated a number of acceptable responses, it did not warrant such respect), the original post contained no genuine purpose other than to to simply proselytize and preach.
You really do let the majority of Christians down ... you have brought false accusation against others and you have preached false doctrine. These are clearly labelled as sin, now go and repent. Shame on you.
A fair question. If the more evangelical Christians were content to keep their beliefs personal, i would not have cause to criticise them. The problem is that they are not, especially when it comes to such topics as evolution. There are some groups within Christianity who are actively engaged in lying, misrepresentation and are targeting our schools and science classes with misinformation presented as science and fact when it is not.
I consider it perfectly alright for someone to have an opinion, no matter how ill-informed it may be, and to express that opinion in public is a right. To go unchallenged is not. A forum such as this allows anyone to give voice to their opinion. But when someone writes something that is blatantly incorrect - i do not consider it an attack to correct them.
RAY: Those assless chaps look good on you Kirk KIRK: Praise the lord! RAY: Indeed.. KIRK: Thats a big banana you have there. RAY: Now watch as i peel back the skin slowly.. KIRK: Oh, yes! Thats lovely! RAY: Come closer... KIRK: Mmmm... RAY: You're such a willing pupil Kirk..
*sound of someone trying to speak with their mouth full*
Now that I'm back from another mind clearing meditation session (thanks a lot!)...
I think that Ray Comfort has provided the evidence that God doesn't exist. No, really! Go with me on this...
I'll assume that you've seen Ray's little video about the banana, but for the rest of our audience here's a quick recap... There are three ridges down one side of the banana that match the three grooves on the inside of the human hand. And there are two ridges on the other side of the banana that match two grooves on the thumb side of the human hand. The human hand is therefore designed to hold a banana that is itself designed to be held. There's also something about a ring-pull and biodegradable packaging but... whatever. Ray says that this proves the existence of God! Remarkable!
Now... Turn the banana through 180 degrees around its long axis. Now you have three ridges that don't match two grooves and two ridges that don't match three grooves. Therefore there is no God! Ray's initial assumption that the banana must be held one way is as valid as mine that it must be held the other way. Other than that, the line of reasoning is exactly the same but it now leads to the opposite conclusion. Ta da! I've shown that God doesn't exist.
The stakes are too high to be wrong ... The atheist CANNOT allow himself to contemplate the reality that the Christian theist lives in ... The stakes are just to high to be wrong ... the concept of burning in hell for all eternity with never ending torment from demons that genuinely hate you with a depth you can not grasp and with no possible way out all because they have rejected so great a salvation which was offered to them for free ... is to much to conceive .. and the stakes are to high to be wrong ... so the atheist (s) HAS TO keep arguing, using every form and brand of excuse, justification, rationalization, to deceive themselves about not facing the possibility of the Christian theist being right ... even in these debates, petty mockery, endless picking at the trivial, continual throwing up smoke screens of arguments which have no substance but just arguing for the sake of arguing ... all because ... the stakes are to high to be wrong ... When we go on a holiday we plan carefully, check out the location, find out about the hotels, the night life in short, we make sure that where we are going is going to be enjoyable and memorable ... how much more should we get all the facts on eternity (if there is one) surely intelligent, reasonable, rational people would do a full investigation and not just blindingly swallow all the information they have read all their lives or what they have been taught in school ... the stakes for the are to high to be wrong ... For the Christian theist the worst that can happen is we live good positive productive lives which enriches the world and then become worm food ... for the atheist the worst that can happen is live a life which is good positive and productive which enriches the world and then spend eternity in hell ... the stakes are to high for the atheist to be wrong ... that is why the atheist cannot afford to be wrong ...
As an atheist I don't agree with the concept of heaven & hell. If I were a Christian I would point out that only god, and not M. James, can decide who goes to heaven and hell;o)
Bullen Please read my response with regard to gravity ... and who gave you the idea that I had established my self as God and was deciding who goes to heaven or hell?
M.James You are at it again. Your first post was falsified, it comprised a pack of complete and utter lies. If you really do value some form of afterlife, how dare you insult the dead like that? This is just more of the same.
When you say "The atheist CANNOT allow himself to contemplate the reality that the Christian theist lives in" ... what on earth are you going on about. The average Christain theist is not insane for a start, but shouldn't you be changing the word 'reality' to 'fantasy'.
When you say "The stakes are just to high to be wrong" ... what on earth are you going on about. The stakes may be high in your mind, but the odds are a lot higher. Now your hell may exist, it is evidently so real in your life that it has driven you close to losing the plot completely. And by maintaining this dogma you are ignoring everyone else. As I said in a previous post, the Buddhists, Sikhs and Hinhus could well be right on Karma ... in that case you are well and truly condemned.
When you say "the concept of burning in hell for all eternity with never ending torment from demons that genuinely hate you with a depth you can not grasp and with no possible way out all because they have rejected so great a salvation which was offered to them for free" ... evangelical buzzwords again ... demons, burning in hell, salvation, what on earth are you going on about? Where are these demons? Tell me, where have you seen demons apart from in your own head and in religious propoganda?
When you say "so the atheist (s) HAS TO keep arguing, using every form and brand of excuse, justification, rationalization, to deceive themselves about not facing the possibility of the Christian theist being right" ... you continue to let the majority of Christians down ... any sane Christian will quite possibly be cringeing just reading that sort of infantile tosh.
When you say "even in these debates, petty mockery, endless picking at the trivial, continual throwing up smoke screens of arguments which have no substance but just arguing for the sake of arguing" ... I think you'll find it's the other way round.
As for your statement "how much more should we get all the facts on eternity (if there is one) surely intelligent, reasonable, rational people would do a full investigation and not just blindingly swallow all the information they have read all their lives or what they have been taught in school" ... what facts have you got for us? what infromation have we blindingly swallowed?
When you say "For the Christian theist the worst that can happen is we live good positive productive lives which enriches the world and then become worm food" ... that may be one way of looking at it, but it's not, you'll have missed out ... you'll have missed out on so many things you could have done/known/loved/had whilst you were alive, and you would not have come across as ... sorry, I'm not going to say that.
When you say "for the atheist the worst that can happen is live a life which is good positive and productive which enriches the world and then spend eternity in hell" ... you speak bile, you do not know this and there is no evidence to support it. Now you have to appreciate that your view on hellfire and brimstone may affect your life, but it is irresponsible to deliver messages like this for which you have no supporting evidence ... especially if you deliver it to children or the vulnerable.
Again, you have brought false accusation against others and you have preached false doctrine. These are clearly labelled as sin, now go and repent. Shame on you.
M.James - What made you turn and become a Born Again Christian?
For the Christian theist the worst that can happen is we live good positive productive lives which enriches the world and then become worm food ... "
Pascal's wager again.
No, the worst that can happen to you is that the Gods of the ancient Norse pantheon turn out to be the true ones. Boy, is Odin going to be fed up with you guys.
Your argument breaks down (I use the term advisedly) as follows:
1. If the claims of Christianity are true, then infinite punishment awaits those who do not believe. 2. There are no negative consequences of belief in Christianity. 3. Therefore, it is rational to believe.
Each and every step can be questioned, as follows for example: 1. Well, this is true. However, any religion can make this facile and immoral claim of infinite punishment for finite wrongdoing (although the more enlightened ones do not.) You still have no rational basis for deciding between their various competing and contradictory claims; just assuming that the prevailing religion of your age and location is the only one whose threats need to be taken seriously isn't really a satisfying option. 2. False - if you think that believing things that stand a good chance of actually being true is important. Just believing in something because you are genuinely terrified of the consequences of not believing it doesn't seem a particularly honest or sincere position. 3. No, not 'rational' - just unnecessarily cowardly, given that the demons you are so frightened of only exist in your mind. You would possibly lead a calmer, more serene life without the fears that clearly haunt you. None of these things are real, MJ - there are no unicorns or fairies, no gods or demons, no heaven and hell. There's no sensible evidence to suggest that any of these things actually exist, and your fear is not a substitute for evidence. Don't attempt to inflict it on the rest of us - it just looks ridiculous.
In the story of the Emperor's new clothes, a little boy has the sense to point out the obvious fact that the Emperor is, indeed, naked. What would you have done? Judging by your post, I suspect your reaction would have been something like this: "Well, there's no actual evidence that he has any clothes on, admittedly. However, what if I'm wrong? If I say that he's naked, then I will be ridiculed or worse - maybe severely punished. I'd better believe that he has some lovely clothes on - after all, if that turns out to be right, I've lost nothing. But if I'm wrong, I could be thrown into jail and tortured. I'm keeping my mouth shut."
Hi, just wading in to offer a point of information. Stumbled on this forum and seeing alot of the argument against Christianity centring on that people believe out of fear of hellfire, brimstone etc.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my belief in Jesus is not based on a fear of going to hell. That wouldnt be biblical anyway, in the sense that Jesus came to deliver us from fear, not draw us into it. I'm not saying that there are not people out there whose beliefs are primarily driven by fear. This may very well be from harmful "turn or burn" teaching expounded into them from a young age. But whoever did this expounding was not doing it on a biblical basis- I do not see much "loving others" in such teaching.
I also see much arguing and vitriol on forums like this. What does it achieve? It doesn't seem like there are many people changing their views as a result of reasoned debate. To an outsider looking in (which I what I was up until a few minutes ago), it looks very much like a handful of people, misinformed on both sides, raging a debate which is a thinly disguised smokescreen to attack others.
A word of advice, offered freely to those reading to accept or reject it, if you want to find out the rational, reasoned beliefs of a Christian or an Atheist, I doubt that you will find much of that here.
M.james..... I have not read any of this Ray Comfort chaps stuff, but he sounds like a douche...... Voltaires' last words, I have read, were according to a preist as follows:
preist: This is your final chance, will you accept the Lord Jesus Christ and renounce Satan?
Voltaire: Now now, my good man, this is no time for making enemies.......
by the way..... there was no King Charles XI of le francais..... I'm guessing you are not the type to scrutinize the sources of your info...... This comes as no surprise
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