We know that God does not exist because men who wear white coats and thick glass who work in science laboratories and own large tape measures and test-tubes and look into microscopes and telescopes tell us in their best condescending, patronising, know-it-all voice that there is absolutely, almost certainly only a small possibility that there could be a God, so we can not argue with these intelligent, all wise and all knowing people. What would we `slow, dim ' people really know, anyway .. really I ask you?

We know there is no God because of all the starving people in Africa. If there was a God of love he would feed every one, right? And we have no responsibility to help these people, right?

We know there is no God because Hollywood celebrities with bright, white teeth, and perfect combed hair and bodies of goddesses and Adonis's with millions of dollars rolling into their bank accounts tell us they do not believe there is a God, so that seals the deal right there. There cannot be a God if they say so ... right? With white teeth like that they must know what they are talking about ... right?

We know there is no God because of all the sexually abused girls in the various Asian countries in the east and if there was a God he would stop this and I have no responsibility to help these young girls, right?

We know there is no God because there are so many documented cases of sexual perversion, infidelity and financial misappropriation amongst preachers and ministries there can be no God or He would `do something' with these individuals and they can not have the same free will I have to express my atheism.

We know that there is no God because we `feel' so inspired to have a deep hatred and resentment toward the Christian God for the way our life has turned out. I mean if there was a God of love why does my life suck so bad.

All of these deductions are almost conclusive `evidence' that there cannot be a God and I am willing to risk missing the Glory of heaven and the tortures of hell based on all this evidence!!

NOTE TO NEWCOMERS: The above OP written by Michael James is a weak attempt to parody what he thinks is an atheistic position. He doesn't mean what he says. He is actually a Christian and his real views can be found elsewhere on this forum. I wouldn't waste your time on them though...

M. James,

You said:
"We know that God does not exist because men who wear white coats and thick glass who work in science laboratories and own large tape measures and test-tubes and look into microscopes and telescopes tell us in their best condescending, patronising, know-it-all voice that there is absolutely, almost certainly only a small possibility that there could be a God, so we can not argue with these intelligent, all wise and all knowing people. What would we `slow, dim ' people really know, anyway .. really I ask you?"

Ad hominem attacks, misrepresentation and would have been a strawman if you'd bothered to knock it down...

You said:
"We know there is no God because of all the starving people in Africa. If there was a God of love he would feed every one, right?"

This is the `Problem of Evil' and it is a genuine dilemma for those who believe in a benevolent god.

You said:
"And we have no responsibility to help these people, right?"

Misrepresentation, strawman if you'd knocked it down.

You said:
"We know there is no God because Hollywood celebrities with bright, white teeth, and perfect combed hair and bodies of goddesses and Adonis's with millions of dollars rolling into their bank accounts tell us they do not believe there is a God, so that seals the deal right there. There cannot be a God if they say so ... right? With white teeth like that they must know what they are talking about ... right?"

Misrepresentation, accusation of argument from authority (or maybe, argument from celebrity).

You said:
"We know there is no God because of all the sexually abused girls in the various Asian countries in the east and if there was a God he would stop this..."

See above re: Problem of Evil.

You said:
"...and I have no responsibility to help these young girls, right?"

Misrepresentation, strawman if you'd knocked it down.

You said:
"We know there is no God because there are so many documented cases of sexual perversion, infidelity and financial misappropriation amongst preachers and ministries there can be no God or He would `do something' with these individuals..."

See above re: Problem of Evil.

You said:
"...and they can not have the same free will I have to express my atheism."

Huh? Possible strawman, probable rubbish.

You said:
"We know that there is no God because we `feel' so inspired to have a deep hatred and resentment toward the Christian God for the way our life has turned out. I mean if there was a God of love why does my life suck so bad."

Ad hominem attack, misrepresentation, strawman if you'd knocked it down.

You said:
"All of these deductions are almost conclusive `evidence' that there cannot be a God and I am willing to risk missing the Glory of heaven and the tortures of hell based on all this evidence!!"

Misrepresentation, strawman if you'd knocked it down.

May I suggest that if you want to debate people and be taken seriously by them that you drop the anger, the wholesale sarcasm, the preaching and the logical fallacies. People are far more likely to listen to you and to understand the points you are trying to make if make your posts reasoned, well thought out and polite. If someone were to read one of your posts as they are at the moment they could be forgiven for thinking that you are trolling (which, of course, I'm not accusing you of). If you keep an open mind, admit the possibility that you could be wrong, listen to what others have to say and evaluate what they present to you, you will get a lot further.

[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

So if it's not a discussion you want is it an argument or just a platform to publicly air your opinions without the possibility of correction you're after? I just need to know because one involves a little input on our part and the other means we can just leave you shouting in your own little world.

Firstly, I do not believe in any form of God or supreme being in the sense that you think of a God. But my view is this:

God (the Holy spirit), Allah or whatever, is intended to be a source of hope for people who seek religion. Therefore God is truly real in the hearts and minds of every Christian, every Muslim, any practitioner of any religion in the world who call upon this strength every day. They have their Gods, who are as real to them as feelings of joy and sorrow to us.

These internal, personal Gods are called upon during hard times to give them some strength and to make sure they lead a good life, which in turn makes them happy.

Myself, I dont need to believe in some God or other idol, I know what is ethically right and live by these principles. As I have no regrets or fears about the things I have done wrong, I am (almost) constantly happy in myself.

Its kind of a Buddhist thing I guess, but to me its just my way of life.

If everyone in the world was to find their own God, or their own ethical way of life then, there would be no more hunger, violence or other suffering. Were you expecting a bearded figure to appear and magically take this all away for us?

Human suffering is caused by humans themself, not through the actions (or lack of actions) of some super natural being who lives 100 miles above the clouds.

M. James,

And there you go proving my point.

I did read your thirty keys... and gave them all the consideration they deserved. Now, if you read my post carefully, you'll see that I didn't mention being taken seriously by atheists, I suggested ways in which you could improve your chances of being taken seriously by anyone.
If you aren't concerned with what atheists think, why do you post on discussion forums such as this one? If all you want to do is read the opinions of people who agree with you then it shows intellectual laziness. How are you ever to learn or grow in understanding if you never challenge your views? You say that atheists are bigoted and ignorant but, from the evidence of your posts, this description more accurately describes you. I hope you learn to open your mind and consider other viewpoints. At least that way, even if you eventually decide to continue believing as you currently do, it can be said that you thought about it.

So many people have witnessed and reported The Logos, when they look within, that it seems odd to me that anyone can rule out the existence of a single all eprvading consciousness.

M.James
You refer to yourself as a Christian, however your behaviour reflects badly on the majority of Christians.

[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

To all other Christians out there,

Just to let you know that we wont judge you all on the basis of M. James. Now that would be unfair, and nobody deserves that...

Jd Steed,

The Logos? The masculine principle of rationality and consciousness? Not really all-pervading if only 50% of people can see it when they look within... ;)

How by making ill thought out attacks on atheism do you plan on conveying the need for the Gospel in people's lives? How does the Gospel get out to the world if the children of God, who were freed from our sin and made right before God by Jesus' atoning death on the cross, are so angry towards non christians acting in such an unloving fashion?

As christians we should rebuke those who sin against our sovereign lord, showing there rebelion, but we should do it only as a means of showing them that they need God's forgiveness, through God's grace, so that they can be saved.

All that you original post achieves is to confuse people and to show christians in an undeserved light. We should withdraw from petty squabbles and proclaim to all peoples and all nations that Christ has been crucified and all must repent and believe the one true Gospel to avoid the coming wrath.

God does not exist because ... he never answers his bloody phone!

To be perfectly honest Sam Hunter.....

True atheists wouldn't give a fig what James or any other theist says. Just keep them away from my door is all I would ask. I normally find that a broken nose usually offends!

Atheists are non-believers, why would anyone want to argue the point with people with paranoic lop-sided brainage? We don't waste our time arguing the toss over matters that are irrelevent. We get on with 'real' matters.

P. Dillon,

I don't see it as irrelevant. Religion affects all of our lives. That's fine so long as you choose to let it affect you. I'm not saying that people aren't free to make their own choices. But because of the undeserved privilege that religion is afforded in our society, it affects those of us who don't believe in it and wish to live without its influence.

I also dislike seeing that some people obviously haven't considered the `opinions' that they're spouting. I don't include all theists in this. There are a number of people with religious beliefs on these discussion forums who are thoughtful, able to put across their points well and have considered what they say. I don't have a problem with them and enjoy the discussions that we have.

But there are a number of people who make preaching, abusive posts that contain obvious nonsense and make it clear that the poster hasn't and probably wouldn't consider others' points of view. I should probably ignore them, I know.

[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

Just to say you made a good point. I a not a believer or a frantic non believer, I always think there might be some room for something we don't know. But I definitely with what you say: "if everyone in the world was to find..etc".
In other words, if you start with doing you best to avoid bothering your neighbours because they believe or don't, that the beginning of wisdom.

Just to say you made a good point. I a not a believer or a frantic non believer, I always think there might be some room for something we don't know. But I definitely with what you say: "if everyone in the world was to find..etc".
In other words, if you start with doing you best to avoid bothering your neighbours because they believe or don't, that the beginning of wisdom.

[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

Unfortunately what you are doing by posting this kind of message Michael is demonstrating one of the reasons people turn away from Christianity and God. Some Christians and members of other religions (and I stress some, so I mean a minority) use their faith to absolve themselves of responsibility for hateful things that they say. I hate homosexuals because God says so. I hate women who go out to work because God says so. I hate children who disrespect their parents because God says so. You hate people who don't believe in God because... I will never propose to be knowledgable about the Bible, but I am sure that somewhere it says that judgement is His alone and not your right or responsibility. Firstly you have to take responsibility for your own thoughts, prejudices and frustrations. Unfortunately the evils of this world cannot be equated to a simple battle of theists vs atheists. An inability to relate to people's feelings and an inability to empathise is nothing to be proud of Michael. You have to take responsibility as an adult and a Christian for things that you say. It is all too easy on a forum such as this to spill bile because there is no real consequence. You obviously have faith, so why do you seem so miserable about it? As was so eloquently posted above, should you not be trying to spread this wonderful gift you have rather than getting frustrated and hateful with those who refuse to share it? If people choose not to listen to you, which they have every right to do, then walk away. People will respect you for that.

By the way, I am one of 'those' scientists who works in a lab, wears a white coat and brandishes a tape measure. However, I am young, female (girls are scientists too!), I do not wear thick glasses and I'm actually pretty hot. You must remember not to pigeonhole 'us' the way that people are so eager to pigeonhole people of your faith. Lead by example, if you have the courage to do so.

Hot eh?? Mmmmmmmmm x

An atheist is just a potential convert. Not necessarily today but at some point. That's my understanding of how believers in Christ should think of those who are not.

A believer who acts in a nasty way to anyone that doesn't believe is not following the path of Jesus. At what point (other than with merchants in the Temple) did Christ act in a nasty way to non-believers. He was even nice to non-Jews and those guilty of sins that were punishable by death.

Christians try to be like Christ was. By all means turn aside from non-believers if you wish but don't be so unpleasant and full of hate at people who do not fit what you want. Life as a Christian is about doing what he would do, not what you think is right. It does give a bad name to faith as a whole when people are so unpleasant.

I do find it odd when Christians or atheists who do not want their opinion argued against post on forums like this.
If you are an atheist and don't want to hear about the opinions of believers, don't come and read here at all. The same goes for believers, if you don't want to read what atheists think, don't bother reading this forum at all.

Forums are for discussion, not for a pat on the back for being smug in ones own opinion.

Liz

'I do not wear thick glasses and I'm actually pretty hot.'

Are you insinuating that only girls who wear thick glasses are hot?

I also find it very amusing when someone makes a statement like that about themselves! Many ugly old pervy men make those kinds of claims on internet forums! And before anyone replies....yes, I could be one of them!! :0

[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

My secret's out Dillon, it's true, I'm a pudgy, dirty old man!

(now awaiting responses from pudgy dirty old men who feel stereotyped and victimised!)

I get an awful lot of double takes when I tell people what I do for a living. On one occassion in a restaurant, the waitress actually refused to accept my credit card because it said 'Dr' on it and she just wouldn't believe it was mine! So in all seriousness, I do know what it is like for people to make snap judgements about you, in my case because I don't resemble one of those gloriously mulleted gentlemen you typically find on open university programmes at 3am on a Tuesday morning! It can sometimes be very hard work just to have people listen to what you are saying when they have already decided that you have nothing valid that they want to hear. Now whether that happens to be because you're hot like me (tongue is firmly in cheek! I repeat, tongue is firmly in cheek!), you're young, you're the wrong colour, you talk funny, you happen to be an atheist...it's just not right. And we all do it, a lot of the time without realising it. It's our amazing ability to reason that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. Well, it should anyway!

Hey Harry - don't hate me because I'm beautiful*

*Tongue in cheek. I repeat, tongue in cheek!

Enjoy your afternoon everyone!