Without Astrology we'd have no 'Three Wise Men'; no 'Star Of Bethlehem'; no 'Little Baby Jesus' in a manger; no 'Christianity'; so no 'Santa Claus' and ...... wait for it ...... no

C H R I S T M A S!

So why is The Church so down on it?

Hi Maya,

Is it banned though? I pretty much thought that the denominations of Christianity were rather fluid when it comes to such things as mysticism. I am not aware of any official sanctions..

I am also not seeing the link between Astrology and Santa/Xmas. I seem to recall that christmas was originally a pagan festival (saturnalia) that was adopted by Christians. I may be wrong about that one.

Hi Andy,

Sorry this was started before I'd had a sleep - but what I meant to say was that
I always thought that the Three Wise Men were Astrologers (and that's how they knew
which Star to follow - not only that - they knew what they'd find when they got there.
So as I saw it, the whole Jesus story was based on Prediction = Astrology / Divination??

I've had churchy pamphlets pushed into my hands by 'concerned' Christians -
the pamphlets are very 'they will burn in hell' about it - and I thought that we'd
progressed beyond all that. btw I'm not in a similar situation as David - most
folk here are very tolerant and not very bible-bashy - but the folk who come
to the door are dead against Astrology. So the point was the Christmas Story
and the Star and The Three Wise Men - without that there'd be no Christianity
= no Christmas ( I just thought it would give us something 'seasonal' to discuss
(maybe a big mistake eh;-)

Cheers, Maya

Hi Andy,

Forgot to say yes, I know what you mean - I don't think it's really 'banned'
as such - I'm afraid I just couldn't resist making it sound like a 'Band' -

(If I carry on like this folk are gonna give me something to put a 'Band-Aid' on;-)

Cheers, Maya

(I suppose I'm gonna be in even more trouble now because I have
to go out and won't be back till tonight - ahwell - seeyalater;-)

Hi Maya,

No worries. I think the bible (Matthew iirc) describes them as solely as Magi, which would be synonymous with wise/educated persons for that period. Magi is a unisex term. The actual numbers are not mentioned, just the number of gifts - three. Could of been a group of 300 plus Magi -perhaps a convention- that would explain why there was no room at the inns. ;)

I guess an education would include astrology since it was regarded at that time as a genuine mathematical endeavour and taken quite seriously. Daniel mentions astrologers and soothsayers - i can't remember if it was in a good light or not.

Maya, AJ,

The Bible forbids Divinition - i.e. determining the future, which is why modern Astrology is condemned. I use the term modern as Babylonian Astrology was a mixture of Astronomy, mathematics and Astrology. But this kind of prediction is not diviniation - it is not using some external reference and making it influence the future - it is the future. For example I can predict that the moon will disappear from view completely every 28 days. This isn't diviniation, it is science. I seem to recall that the Babylonians had 'predicted' an astrological event as much as 300BC and it is possible that this event is what the wise men/magi/astrologers/kings were following.

The visit of the magi to the infant Jesus is unlikely to have occurred on the night he was born as is often portrayed in the story telling - in fact Jesus was a toddler by the time they arrived as witnessed by the fact that Herod ordered all male children below a certain age killed.

While it is quite possible that the 3/3000 wise men were in fact astrologers, I am not sure that they were what we see today as astrologers and I don't think that what they were doing was divinition, merely prediction.

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

Does it? My Bible studies may have lapsed somewhat, but i retain the impression that the biblical stories were steeped in mysticism and divination. We've even had followers posting here convinced that there are prophesies both fulfilled and pending contained within scripture. I would say a prophets main attribute is to have foreknowledge of future events.

To give you a bad example: God informing Noah of the flood i think would count as divination and Jesus himself was pretty fond of telling people of what would come to pass.

Quite right AJ,

But Wayne, what I'd be interested to hear are your own personal opinions
(ie not what the church has told you to think). Plus I still can't see how
for some people something is termed as a 'miracle' but for someone else
it's witchcraft or sorcery, Isn't this being very hypocritical.

Cheers, Maya

Most of the above topics are discussed eloquently here by Carl Sagan an astronomer, astrochemist, author, and successful popularizer of astronomy, astrophysics and other natural sciences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB88HnlLgZ8

"It may be that the old astrologers had the truth exactly reversed, when they believed that the stars controlled the destinies of men. The time may come when men control the destinies of stars."
Arthur C. Clarke.

I may be wrong here, but I think the term 'prophecy' is a bit misunderstood. Most people seem to think it is only foretelling the future. But that in religious terms it is not necessarily so, as I understand it.

Wikipedia says:

"A prophecy is the message that has been communicated to a prophet, which the prophet then communicates to others. In general, this message can involve divine inspiration, revelation, or interpretation. More specifically, it may be a professed psychic prediction."

Now, assuming God exists, otherwise of course it doesn't make any sense, a prophet is able to receive and convey a message from God or the divine, whether that message is a prediction of the future or any other message for humanity or for a person.

IF that prophecy has God's approval, even if it is a prediction of the future, so in this case the prophet must be a genuine one, of course, really receiving the message from God/Holy Spirit directly, that is okay, because God is God and He is transmitting something that under extraordinary circumstances He considers needs to be transmitted under whatever form and way He considers or not.

The other side of the story, trying to find out the future through astrology or whatever other means, without a message for you coming from God, is ... NOT from God, as simple as that. It's nothing to do with hypocrisy and it's not something that gets you into hell or something (I am obviously not the church :) if you are curious and do it, but it is not good simply because you have free will, your fate/future hasn't been written until it has been written and someone telling you that they see I don't know what in your future may simply influence you in taking a wrong road.

It's either from God and then it is justified, or it is not from God and then it isn't justified anymore for your own good because the future hasn't been written until it has been written and it may do you more harm than good.

That's the difference.

Someone who has a genuine God given gift of seeing the future of people, usually doesn't say anything, unless there is an extraordinary circumstance and he/she (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) considers he/she has to tell that person.

In Church terms, what's not from God, is ... NOT from God, that's why it is seen as against God.

And about miracles and witchcraft ... well, you see, a miracle is from God, and it HAPPENS, by God's will, not by human will. Witchcraft would be a human being using occult powers they do not fully understand playing God and influencing the lives of people and the order of things, which as a human being you could only understand in a very limited way, thus doing harm without you realizing that you do harm and thinking you do good for someone.

So...again, one would be God's will, the other human will, so ... NOT God's will.

I corrected this typo - but I think it should go in a box on its own
so folk can see that I'd asked Wayne if he would kindly explain
maracles (sounds like a musical instrument;-)

Perhaps you could give some convincing provable examples of successful prophets?
As Carl Sagan has said. Most of the prophets are so vague and obscure etc. That interpretation is not clear.
As for miracles. People from disparate and wide ranging beliefs claim 'miracles'.
How can all these earnest claims be a true miracle if they come from worship and prayer to different faiths and gods?
I have not been convinced by any miracle.

Hi Gabriela,

How would you personally know the difference?

Cheers, Maya

"How would you personally know the difference?"

Between what? Between a miracle and witchcraft? Or between a genuine prophet telling you the future and a charlatan telling you the future? Or? Not sure exactly what you mean?

Maya,

PS: But as I haven't met anybody yet claiming to be a prophet (genuine or not) nor a witch 'good' or bad, nor have I met someone being able to turn stones into human beings, nor an astrologer claiming to have God's approval for his/her predictions ... I really couldn't tell you how I would know. But I would.

Starry Heavens

The principles of Chaos Theory ensure that in a system with independent and inter-dependent decision-making entities continually changing the intitial conditions, any attempt to predict a future state of the system is impossible - thus "prophecy" is impossible. Beyond the "there will be a General Election in the UK in May 2010" sort of prediction - one that *is* dependent on a decision-making process but that the limits of the process are mostly known and it is also known that other decisions are presently unlikely to affect this, specific or even general predictions can only be guesswork.

The only way "prophets" have been shown to have had any success is by creative interpretation of what they apparently said in the light of events that actually took place.

The apparent success of such prophecies as astrological predictions are entirely explained by selective positive bias and are easy to reproduce by anybody. For example, without any astrologicial gobbledy-gook, I could very easily convince a particular person that I could predict the winner of every horse race on a particular day.

[Deleted by the author on 12 Nov 2009 09:34 GMT]

lol Maya

Shall I understand that astrology is seen as divine practice in Hinduism? I really wouldn't know.

I cannot consider what my attitude would be to Western Astrology, if I were to be born into a Hindu family, because I haven't got a clue what that would mean. I would need to know what kind of family, what education I would get, what Hinduism teaches, but eventually I would hope to still end up thinking for myself, instead of thinking what I've been programmed with by society, and realizing that while (serious) astrology may very well be an * indicator * of something that * may * happen, it is not written in stone (unless it's written in stone, the example with the moon every 28 days), and that I am the one to write my own future.

Were I to be born into a Hindu family and not realize this, it could very well mean that I've been offered a different role in the play called 'Life' on the stage called 'Earth'. So, I'd just have to play my role, and follow the script, if I want to get paid at the end of my life as an actor - the role of a Hindu believing and practicing astrology.

But ... somehow I think that Hindu actor would know it was just a role he/she is playing.

PS: lol this refers to your deleted comment, Maya

(edited to add PS, after Maya's comment has disappeared :)

Sorry AJ,

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should be. Prophets in the Bible did have an element of foresight in their prophecies (though most were not foretelling the future, but rallying the people back to God). By 'divination' the practise that is forbidden is one that does not involve God. So seeking the stars for the future (i.e. Astrology).

It is also worth considering the practise of divination was forbidden to the Jews and to Christians, but that does not mean that God cannot use foreigners's practises for his own ends. The wise men were not Jewish and were not therefore forbidden from practising the art/science of astrology as was.

The two examples you give are not divination - Neither God nor Jesus was telling people what would happen based on the movements of the stars. They were telling people what would happen based on what would/will happen. And since both are God, they should know.

Wayne

Maya,

The church hasn't told me to think anything. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, no-one has told me to think anything and if they did it would almost certianly start me thinking....

The difference between a miracle and witchcraft or sorcery is its source. A miracle comes from God, but witchcraft and sorcery do not. Miracles also have no catch, whereas (in my experience) witchcaft and sorcery are all about power (i.e. having power over someone).

Hypocrisy would only occur if I denied that witchcraft and sorcery had any power, but I think that they do (astrology on the other hand I am incredibly sceptical of).

Wayne

PS. I noticed that Gabriela has answered these questions very well. Thanks

Hi Wayne,

You said:-
"" The difference between a miracle and witchcraft or sorcery is its source. A miracle comes from God, but witchcraft and sorcery do not. ""

You said:-
"" Hypocrisy would only occur if I denied that witchcraft and sorcery had any power, but I think that they do ""

Wayne, what evidence do you have to support your belief in any of those things?
(Miracles? Witchcraft? Sorcery?)

You said:-

"" It is also worth considering the practise of divination was forbidden to the Jews and to Christians, but that does not mean that God cannot use foreigners's practises for his own ends. The wise men were not Jewish and were not therefore forbidden from practising the art/science of astrology as was. ""

H Y P O C R I S Y !!!!!!!

Cheers, Maya

Hi Gabriela,

"" lol this refers to your deleted comment, Maya ""

lol yes, I realised how holey my comment was
so it had to go - but you caught me ......

I know there's the making of something there
(once I've stitched the holes up)
I'll mull over it a bit more ......

Cheers, Maya