A impressionable young atheist was having an attack of conscience and started questioning his faith in science so he wrote to a well-know atheist and asked him for some advice about living out his beliefs as an atheist. The young atheist received this reply to his question 'How can I be an effective atheist?'
1. Make sure your main focus is on Christians, Confucius, allah, buddha, Krishna all have no power so they are no threat, but this guy Jesus Christ and his followers who have embraced his teachings they are trouble, focus your attacks on Him and them, you can 'touch' on other groups to appear even-handed, you don't want to get killed in a Jihad do you? but ensure you are careful to make Christians your constant target. Only 'mention' the other groups such as Islam but then say that there is no difference between radical Muslims and 'fundamentalist' Christians.
2. Remember that you are looking for faults in other religions (Christians) not trying to defend yours so do not try to prove atheism! Remember, it's much easier to destroy than build up.
3. When referring to atheists always use power-filled terms like 'intelligent, educated, thinkers, strong minded and independent.'
4. Ensure you call Christians childish degrading names like, pathetic air-heads, pointless God-bother-er's, deluded bible kissers, wingnut, a faith-head, a fully paid-up nutjob, an all singing, all glossolaling religious fruit bat and insult them with statements which include the terms like ignorant, clueless, uneducated, the goal here is to provoke and frustrate the Christian to the point they become angry, then, you can then claim they are a hypocrite for not being 'loving like Jesus.'
5. Always talk about just being a good person remembering that, 'good' is relative to each people and culture, just like cannibals who say 'I really enjoyed eating Bill last night, he was really 'good' or paedophiles saying 'they love little Janet, she was so 'good' or Hitler saying that killing Jews is 'good.' You are allowed to define 'good' however you would like because there is no higher authority to define what 'good' is. No one can set the objective moral standard as that would put them in the place of thinking they are 'god.'
6. Be sure to set your own moral standards and compass very, very, very low so that you'll never look like a hypocrite in public. The lower the better.
7. Be as argumentative, obnoxious, loud, sarcastic and verbal as possible - there is no need to make sense or use logic in your arguments - just keep arguing.
8. Use words like 'straw-man,' 'circular reasoning,' 'ad hominem,' 'fallacy,' 'red herring' and 'non sequiturs' against any argument which reveals the false claims of atheism whether you understand those terms or not.
9. Never answer any justified question directly but quickly change the subject to make a completely different point. If you're asked why you keep changing the subject just repeat this step as necessary.
10. Always bring up examples like the spaghetti monster, Zeus, and Santa Claus to prove that if you must believe in one God then you have to believe in all of them, right?!
11. Always ask for 'evidence' for the existence of God but never accept anything presented to you especially when you are told that God is a Spirit so you can not perceive Him with the physical senses or with any physical equipment. Also ignore the reply that 'God is God and he does not need to 'prove' himself to his creation, we are to answer to Him, He does not answer to us!' At the end of a discussion remind them that all you needed was some type of 'evidence' for God.
12. Use the Christian crusades, the Salam witch hunts, and the inquisition which happened hundreds of years ago to 'prove' how bad 'religion' is for the world.
13. Use steps 7 through 9 to get away from any historical facts of all the good that the various Christian charities have done around the world through the centuries.
14. Express disinterest and laugh out loud at the question "Isn't it amazing that Christians continue to preach love and forgiveness to the world given the historical fact atheists have committed the most ongoing blatant atrocities against Christians. Shouldn't these Christians, 'who you claim are the problem,' in retribution, have wiped atheists from the face of the earth for the crimes atheists have committed against Christians, rather than continue to preach love, acceptance and tolerate you.
15. Blindly ignore any questions about millions of Christians being killed by atheists in the last 200 years, but if questions persist claim that this was NOT done 'in the name' of atheism .... which makes it alright. Failing this, refer to steps 7 through 9, this should get you past any awkward questions about atheists who are guilty for crimes against humanity, human genocide and ethnic cleansing.
16. Remember to call yourself a "free-thinker" and "open-minded" but ensure you do not practice what you preach with such 'virtues' when it comes to Christianity. Being open-minded with Christians is not an option available to the atheists as this would open a can of worms we do not want to get into, you must understand that you are not 'free-to-think' that 'there is a God.'
17. Try to laugh out loud or make some disparaging noise every time a Christian makes a statement about what they believe, even if you don't think it is funny or you don't know what they are talking about or you may think they have a good point just try to make them look stupid with your laugh or disrespectful noise.
18. Claim that atheism is for intelligent people who are rooted in "rational, reasonable common sense" thinking even though you can not provide any 'rational, reasonable common sense' explanation for the existence of matter or the cause of the ignition of 'life' or our existence, ignore the fact that less than 10% of the human population claim to be atheists and then use steps 7 through 9 to get away from the question: "what does that say about the other 90% of humanity?"
19. Confess to everyone that you were once a Christian but you saw that all Christians were just hypocrites and realised that reasonable scientific, rational, logical investigation is the only way to truly understand the world we live in. Note: Ignore the hypocrisy in your own life when you pray in troubled times!
20. Refuse to accept or believe anything in the Bible because it was written by MEN.
21. Believe and quote other writings of MEN to prove that the Bible is wrong. Note: completely ignore the inconsistency between steps 20 & 21
22. When referring to the Bible use the words 'myth,' 'fables,' 'fairytales,' 'ideas' and 'opinions' as often as possible. Note: Ignore the question or use steps 7 to 9 to answer the question 'don't you believe your books and writings of science written by men just like we believe our bible which was written by men?"
23. Only use the Bible as the authority when it will advance the atheist religion and will contribute to the atheist dogmas and doctrines. Ignore the question 'You have quoted the bible as evidence, so if the bible is true in one place the entire bible must be true, so what about the scripture that says, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN or THE LORD IS GOOD AND HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER or WHERE GOD REVEALS HIS MERCIFUL NATURE WHEN HE SENT JONAH AND SPARED THE EVIL CITY OF NINEVEH?'
24. Only quote the Bible verses that put God in a bad light, make sure every scripture quoted makes God look like a mean, unfair judge and never ever allow anyone to quote scriptures which show Him in the positive light of a loving heavenly father.
25. Tell everyone you have read the Bible and that you understand what it teaches whether you have or have not, even if you have only read the parts which support your argument and the atheistic religion, you have still 'read the bible,' right!?
26. Refer to step 7 through 9 when once you have stated that the problem in the world is religion, but it is then pointed out to you that atheism is a religion its self with it's own evangelical preachers who preach their own doctrines based on their own bible called 'The origins of the species.'
27. Reject all notions that you live by faith even though you must put your faith in the writings of your own atheist high priests and gurus like Darwin, Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and Atkins and any other book that supports your 'beliefs.' Yes we put our faith in pilots, cars, food, doctors, evolution, and the next chair that you sit in but ignore this obvious flaw in our doctrine as well.
28. Make the claim that you only have one life and don't want to waste it on religion, then ignore your own hypocrisy by living out your own self-serving religion of atheism.
29. If your conscience begins to bother you because of moral guilt you can numb it with arrogance, self-deception, self- importance, judgement of the 'religious' (Christians) people, delusions of NO coming judgement and if this fails try some drugs, alcohol, sex, rape, murder whatever you feel like, remember, 'good' is relative and you only have one life, so live it, best of all there is no hell, right?
30. If doing the drugs and stuff does not appeal to you and you want to appear as a 'morally' upstanding person of the community, don't do the all those things but never let go of your self righteous arrogance and pride. It is this pride that will get you through many a hard times when you are struggling with a question of conscience and of your atheistic faith.
errr... ummm ... just in a final note, you never know, so just is case, every day ... thank God for the free-will he has given you to express your religion of atheism as-you-see-fit, there just maybe hell to pay but ignore that reality and replace it with your own atheistic reality .... for now, any-way, maybe?!
Hmm... Where to start with this? Oh, I know. Who is the atheist who gave this advice? Could you please attribute it to the originator and preferably provide a reference to the original text (a web address, book, etc)? Otherwise, how can we judge whether this is something that genuinely needs to be discussed and refuted or whether it is just trolling?
Actually, I really don't think M James is a troll. I think it took a while to knock this up and thought has gone into it. Which is sadder in a way. Because all of those points are easily dealt with.
OK, M James, I really don't want to go through the lot. So give me any of those numbers from 1 to 30 and I'll argue that point with you. Any one of your choosing, because I don't think any stand up.
You sound angry M.James, this is quite an exhaustive list you've compiled here.
You get hostile people and you get reasonable people. Your points are hostile from the start so it's fairly obvious you are trying to kick off an argument, rather than a reasonable discussion.
If you define yourself as a christian, you should 'look see' over your post and ask yourself if Jesus (or God for that matter) would have approved of it.
btw - definition of 'religion' (as referenced from the Oxford Dictionary) - the belief in and worship of a God or gods.
I think M James is a seagull rather than a troll. A troll like M. Sinclair wants to disrupt topics, make them all about them and their 'hilarious' tangents. Seagulls swoop in dump their load and fly off before before they have to justify it.
I don't hold up any hope of M James sticking around to find out he may have been mislead on one or two things he says. I think this could be a copy and paste job that reaffirms his prejudices rather than something he has concluded and wrote all by himself.
I rather think the poster was caricaturing certain kinds of atheists, in a manner similar to the way in which the thread 'Top 10 Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian' elsewhere caricatures certain types of Christians. I doubt he/she was referring to an actual exchange, but venting some frustration about discussions he/she has been involved in. If I am wrong about that, then please correct me. The question I guess is can anyone recognise or respond to the caricature being presented? To be transparent, I am a Christian and I am happy to debate with anyone so long as we keep things polite and reasonable.
I don't mind debating but I don't think that the OP is any sort of reasonable start to a discussion. The points range from caricature to just plain wrong, stopping off at insulting on the way.
If you have a particular topic that you want to talk about, why not start a new discussion thread and point us towards it. I have no problem with keeping the debate polite and reasonable.
Hi Sam I agree with your assessment: these kinds of caricatures are not particularly helpful, and that was kind of the angle I was pursuing with my question about recognising / responding to the caricature. However, I'm just reading through the debate started with your 'Debating Theists...' post and that seems like a good place to carry on intelligent discussion. So I'll probably see you in there...
You are probably right, however the original poster is lowering their-self to the same level as the 'certain kind of atheist' you mentioned. You sound reasonable, the original poster was not being reasonable, there is no need to defend their actions - unless you really feel there is a need to sit on one side of the fence or the other.
I personally am guilty of requesting some evidence of the existence of a god, however I do accept that people do have a relationship with a peronal god. I do not actually feel guilty about this however, as this is reasonable discussion. I hope you do not feel insulted by this question.
I am also guilty of referencing the christian god to any other deity, because they are the same thing relative to the observer. I am sure you will agree with me as everyone's view is equal, and we should reject dogma. If a person has the view that the christian god is above all other gods, then this is a dogmatic viewpoint, which is wrong.
I am open to discussion like any other 'reasonable' person but all of your responses are proof that the 30 keys are spot on ... sad but so true, and no matter what is 'discussed' or presented, the atheist community will continue to delude themselves with entrenched points of view which they got from the high priests of their religion .. BTW ... definition of 'gods and/or God' is 1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe. 2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute, the God of Christians 3. one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs. 4. a supreme being according to some particular conception 5. an ideology which has complete rule over an individuals thinking 6. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle. 7. an image of a deity; an idol. 8. any person, object or ideology which an individual will believe and serve without question or thought So if your ideology is your God then your 'religion' is atheism which you are serving without question or critical thought
Hi G.Tozer Thanks for calling me reasonable! I will try to be... I do not think your desire for evidence is unreasonable - and I am certainly not insulted!
As to the existence of 'a god' (so we're speaking generally here, not about the Judeo-Christian God specifically), my question would be 'what kind of evidence would be satisfying?' I completely understand that in an ideal world you would want scientifically verifiable evidence, the kind of thing that would be admissible in a court of law. However, my concern is that that just may not be 'how it works'. Instead, the evidence(!) of interacting with all manner of people who hold metaphysical beliefs suggests that a deep sense of personal conviction is the common denominator.
Within this framework, other evidences may come to light that reinforce that conviction to the satisfaction of the individual. But I doubt they would ever be the the kind of evidence I described above.
Rather, I believe that the best 'evidence' is likely to existential in nature and therefore (I'm afraid) unavoidably subjective. In essence, when we consider the universe, life, love, death, emotions and so on do we find more satisfying a sense of meaningfulness or meaninglessness? Connectedness or disconnectedness? Continuity or discontinuity? In terms of my own religion, philosophy, world-view, or whatever you want to call it, I find a mindset that emphasises meaning, connection and continuity most satisfying and most convincing given my own experiences. This leads me to contemplate phenomena that are beyond the material. It allows me to make sense of a concept such as 'beauty' - not in a potential mate, but in a symphony, a poem or a landscape. Such a concept seems to suggest a dimension of perception that seems to transcend the material - it suggests I can engage with a concept of 'transcendence' in the first place.
Now given the nature of a forum I am necessarily sacrificing clarity for brevity, so apologies. But this line of reasoning takes me as far as engaging with a supra-material or transcendent... something. From here I would focus in towards theism, then mono-theism and ultimately Christianity. However, if you have not come this far with me, there's not a lot of point in continuing further! I would welcome comments and questions thus far and will try to respond, though its unlikely to be before Monday. As I have already stated, I will gladly concede that this reasoning is both subjective and existential, but I honestly believe that such evidence can be (at least for the individual concerned) convincing.
I would gently suggest to M.James that such a confrontational approach is not likely to be fruitful: words like 'deluded' and 'entrenched' are just too easily reflected back and the result is deadlock. I understand the frustration, but ultimately scripture itself indicates that we should debate with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3: 15). Grace and Peace to you.
It's funny how the other discussion, "Top ten signs you're a fundamentalist Christian" - a ramshackle, disorganised, sarcastic, all-out attack on Christianity (lifted from Facebook and concluded with "Enjoy all") was openly embraced until otherwise challenged. Nobody accused 6.9 Aethiest of being a troller for starting that thread.
People, there have only been a handful of Christians on these two topics (Myself, Dude and M James); read our posts and then read the replies. It is impossible not to see many of those 30 points in action.
You and I have been having a conversation over on `Top Ten Signs...' and I believe that I have been polite, reasonable and informative. I have put a lot of thought into my posts and tried to research and back up everything that required it. I have read your posts and given them every consideration, answering your points as best I can and asking you to elaborate on your position and opinions when I needed to understand better. So far, I have read the same levels of politeness and thoughtfulness in your own posts. Neither of us has resorted to insults or sarcasm. Tell me, where are the signs of the thirty points in action there?
I hope that we can continue the conversation in the same manner with neither of use resorting to false stereotypes of which these thirty points are examples in one direction. I am looking forward to your reply to my last post.
Yes we have been in conversation. I wasn't talking about you (or the other folk I've/we've been in proper dialogue with) - I should've made that Clear. I didn't and I apologise.
There have been, however, some disparaging comments made throughout both topics towards Christianity - check out S Payne's comments just after my previous post on 'Top Ten...', for one example.
This is more refreshing, we are not disputing the age of the earth at last, or our early ancestural roots.
I think you'll find most people will embrace the points you are making ... life, love, death, emotions and so on ... without the need for a supernatural deity. Do you honestly think that people who don't follow some god, will not understand or value meaningfulness, connectedness and continuity? I think sometimes it's comforting to think that all these lovely emotions really come from something external, but they don't, they are almost certainly in our brains (or mind if you'd like to think it that way). Sure, being with other people may make us feel better, and you may feel better with some people than others, you no doubt feel some good aura come over you when you are in a quiet church full of lots of people, each of them breathing and kicking out 100W of body heat. You'll feel a connection too, that's basic instincts. Being an atheist does not make one appreciate those emotions any more, or less, than your average Christian*.
*Note I say average.
Now do you need a god to see the beauty in a symphony, a poem or a landscape? If you really are interested in the human connection with music, may I suggest 'This Is Your Brain On Music' by Daniel J Levin, it's a great book, however I'm digressing ... no, you don't need a god at all. You can have a god, I'm not knocking it, but you can enjoy a symphony, a poem or a landscape without one. Hey, I'd even cite one of my favourite composers as Avro Part (very religous) ... but I must confess to having 666 The Number Of The Beast as well.
Now I'm still with you on the supra-material or transcendent ... err ... something. I am an atheist, but I am open minded enough to know that humans do not know everything (we do not even know how much we do not know if that makes sense), and one of the areas that I believe is right in front of our noses that we do not know enough about, is consciousness. I'm fully open to the concept of higher consciousness, which is probably being achieved in one way or another, by atheists and theists alike. By the sounds of your post, you probably already reach some form of higher consciousness within your engagement with your faith. Apologies if this is a cheap shot, but it appears our New Earth'ers appear to be achieving an altered state of consciousness. I don't believe any of this is external, but we should leave this to neuroscience to prove it or to falsify it. The brain is truly fascinating.
I appreciate your statement that such evidence can be convincing for the individual concerned. You also have to appreciate that the statement 'convincing for the individual (or group) concerned' may be all it is.
Sorry M.James, I trusted your good word and unfortunately it was wrong.
For anyone wanting a typically unbalanced view about atheism then feel free to go to the website recommended by our friend here. This is the typical bullsh 1 t about heaven and hell, asking (begging) Him for forgiveness, and basically portraying atheists as people who are eternally damned.
As I said earlier M.James, you come across as hostile. The very nature of this website is tacky at best, although I bet most moderate Christians would probably cringe at the content.
I am an atheist (or agnostic possibly) yes, you can call it the religion of atheism if it makes you feel better. However, there is no such thing as the religion of atheism. Judging by the website you have shown us, you are no doubt an Evangelical Christian. We are all the same animal, regardless of religion or not, you should appreciate that.
Peace be with you ... although I don't think you are very peaceful.
Tozer it sounds like I have hit a nerve with you ... I am nothing of which you keep accusing me of ... and we are not, as you claim, animals ... We are a spirit , we have a soul and live in a Body, all of which makes each one of us a Triune (three part) being created in the image of God the father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) God the Holy Spirit.
Mankind is in a fallen state from which he was originally created to be, hence the evil and sin in the world. People do not have 'issues' they have sin in their heart, people do not have 'problems' they have sin in their heart. The only way to be restored to God original design is to be 'born again' (your spirit, not your soul or body is born again or made a new creature by the power of God, don't ask me how I don't know, thats God's department, not mine) through acknowledging you are a sinner revealed by the sin you do every day (pride, rebellion, unbelief and to many other things to name here), accepting you can not save yourself from this state as a sinner, accepting Jesus Christ into your heart as your saviour receiving forgiveness for all your sin through the Blood Jesus shed on the cross and confessing Jesus Christ as your Lord ... You will be born again ... Whether you accept, believe and act on this or not does not change the truth of it ... Whether you accept believe and act on this or not will, however, result in the location you spend eternity ... You choice! Don't blame God when your screaming in hell after you have read this! Have a good day ... LOL
Ok so lets give the atheists what they want ... lets eradicate 'religion' from the planet lets remove every single reference to the concept of God / gods from every culture and people ... lets all just live by boring test-tubes and microscopes ... would we then have some utopian existence on the planet .. would there now be no more wars which the atheist previously blamed on 'religion' ... would there be no more murders ... no more rape ... no more pedophiles every one would be so much better of if it were not for all these pesky deluded god-bother-ers?
Atheism has nothing ... NO-THING to offer the world to help us in each of our desperate situations we all experience ... and then the atheist has the audacity to get upset at Christianity because we hold out hope to people ... How strange ... If I am nothing but a deluded man believing what I believe about the God whom I love and serve why are you interfering with something that is helping me get through the night? In fact how dare you try and interfere with that ... maybe the reason for this is because you sense the reality of what is being said and it cuts you to the heart and you do not want to face the truth of what is being said .... Heres a few youtube videos to watch and consider .... .... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGGkg7mGVDc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO9IPoAdct8&feature=related
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