I'm interested in why theists choose a particular religion. What makes a belief in one god more relevant to you than belief in another?

Is it simply due to geography, culture and upbringing, or is there more to it?

This discussion would allow the atheists to take a backseat while the theists argued it out with each other!

David

Not directly related to your post, but what kind of idiot votes down an opening post which asks a sensible question I wonder? How can this not add to the discussion, when it is the starting point for one?

I'd say that most people who believe in God, regardless of religion, believe there is basically one and the same God, the interpretation of this God is what divides them. A Muslim doesn't believe his God is a different God to a Christian God or vice-versa. But they believe they have the true interpretation and understanding of God. And it's the same situation within the different Christian denominations. And that's where geography, culture, history, upbringing does indeed play the big role. If you are English and your parents are English too, living in England, you're going to speak English, not Chinese, until maybe one day later in life you get to be interested in the Chinese language and learn it. And then you have a choice, to continue to live in England or to emigrate to China : )

Having said that, I think I am going to sit in my atheist armchair this time. I am as curious as David to read what makes theists believe that one religion or another holds the eternal truth?

David Groom
I agree. I stopped using the yes/no buttons a while back. I think some people look at the name, recognise which side of the fence they're on and then click 'no' if the poster is on the other side from them. Then they might decide to actually get round to reading the post...

The fact that you've been clicked 'no' is a case in point. All you are doing is pointing out the stupidity of the buttons, but obviously some people disagree! Why?! However, if it keeps them happy. Interesting to see how many 'no's this post gets (admittedly, it has nothing to do with the discussion in hand, so in this case, they may have a point).

Gabriela
I think many theists would disagree about the one and the same god argument. Many religions have many gods and godesses, and not all have one overall god. Also, those religions that do believe in only one god have such differing views as to the nature of their god that compatibility between the religions is lacking.

I, too, am now going to sit back in my atheist armchair and see what emerges. Before I do, can I ask what led you to believe what you do? Why, for example, are you not a pagan or a scientologist? What is it about your faith that led you to believe it's the right one for you?

i would like to point out that both Christians and Moslem's accept as truth the Pentateuch which are the writings of Moses, (well his brother or someone else later anyway). Both religions have the same god which was originally a local god of a mountain where Moses had a close encounter. it is the prophets and later books that differ.

David

Perhaps you're right, I was under the impression that most theists do realize that even when they speak about different 'Gods' - like in Hinduism, they know that those 'Gods' are actually aspects of one and the same thing. But maybe they don't... I don't know.

I'm not a 'believer' David. And I don't have any particular 'faith'. I am one of those 'crazy' people, like Carl Jung, who says: I don't 'believe', I know, and what I know I know simply because of my own experience. I can pray in a church or in a synagogue or in a Buddhist temple or in a mosque or next to a tree (or even in my atheist armchair : ) it doesn't make any difference to me, but, of course, because my parents were Christians and that's how I was baptized, and because I lived in a world with Christian views, that's the religious language I understand best, even if I didn't have any kind of formal religious education in school (or at home).

Oh the irony,

David - in two days nobody has answered except atheists (perhaps they were all at church.

As for the issue of the buttons - I find them frustrating, but there are numerous times when I am glad they are there (such as when Black Mask starts insulting people again). Generally however I switch off if the first sentence or two doesn't appeal to me.

Anyway I will attempt to answer your question when I get a moment.

Wayne

David: This looks to me like being just another trap to get Christians or whoever to mouth off against other faiths so you can confirm your prejudice that having a theistic faith makes you intolerant, or that accepting one necessarily involves the militant rejection of every other. Speaking personally as a Christian, when I heard the arguments for myself, read the Gospels outside of school RE and found the case fully convincing and the moral treachings, example and vision for a new kind of human societry of on earth of Jesus beautiful, inspirational and life-changing, the issue of other faiths was simply not on my radar. In general I think it is fair to say most people who fall in love with Jesus have no particular opinion about other faiths for some time, and haven't chosen Jesus after investigating other religions and rejecting them first, let alone intolerantly. In the first place what is necessary is that someone overcomes their intolerance toward Christianity, which is ubiquitous in atheist dominated playground and popular culture. Whether people should embark on an exhaustive investigation of all faiths before accepting Christianity or another of the Great World Faiths is another question. A number of issues occur to me about that. Firstly, I don't see atheists bothering with any investigation of other faiths before settling with the default playground-standard atheism, let alone an exhaustive one. Secondly, since there is so much overlap of central spiritual practices and moral teachings among the Great World Faiths, there is less necessity to do so than might be assumed, since one is not 'missing-out' on anything in terms of prayer, meditation, quiet, tranquility and compassion for others by being a Christian instead of whichever else. Thirdly, I wonder how often such a demand is levelled by atheists against Buddhists, Hindus, Odinists, New Age animists or Neo-pagans? I suspect a number of double-standards here, which should be owned up to and dealt with.

Having said all of which (sorry to bore), my observation has been that those truly transformed by a deep commitment to the central spiritualies of all the great World Faiths are far more, rather than less, tolerant of those from other faiths. It is by knowing one's own faith, and understanding it deeply that one becomes unthreatened by hearing or reading things from other faiths. Jesus lays it on pretty heavily in the Sermon on the Mount about tolerance, forgiveness, humility and non-judgementalism, and the Holy Spirit brings out patience and self-control.
What have you got for your disapproval of other faiths (non-atheism)?

There's more to it.
Eastern Gods are infinite impersonal
Greek Gods are personal but impotent,none of them are in charge.
God of the Bible is a triune God,infinite and personal, and He is the only one to show any interest in us and to help us.No one else does or has.Try asking Jesus into your life.He may well come.

There's more to it. Eastern Gods are infinite impersonal Greek Gods are personal but impotent,none of them are in charge. God of the Bible is a triune God,infinite and personal, and He is the only one to show any interest in us and to help us.No one else does or has.Try asking Jesus into your life.He may well come.

Patrick

"This looks to me like being just another trap to get Christians or whoever to mouth off against other faiths..."

No, it's not a trap. I didn't anticipate someone would interpret the question that way.
These discussions tend to be polarized into believers and non-believers. What I was wanting to find out was what, among the believers, do you agree and disagree on. What led you to believe what you do?
A couple of years ago, I attended an Alpha course and at the introductory meeting I said that I was more interested in *why* people thought the way they did than *what* they thought. A fair question, I think, and one that some people here have replied to or are considering replying to.

".....so you can confirm your prejudice that having a theistic faith makes you intolerant, or that accepting one necessarily involves the militant rejection of every other."

How do you know that I have that particular prejudice and that it needs confirming? As I say, it was a genuine question that, for once, the atheists didn't have to wade into. Surely, contrary to your statement, understanding the views of different theistic persuasions leads to tolerance, not intolerance or militant rejection. Aren't you interested in what other people think and why they believe what they believe? Do you feel that you can't learn anything from hearing others? This applies to atheists too, by the way.

"A number of issues occur to me about that. Firstly, I don't see atheists bothering with any investigation of other faiths before settling with the default playground-standard atheism, let alone an exhaustive one."

I don't know what playground-standard atheism is. Sorry.
Regarding the default position, every single person was born an atheist. That is the natural default position. Religious belief only occurs when the person is able to assimilate the cultural / religious norms they are exposed to. Life-long atheists like myself are merely people that have retained the default position and chosen not to become involved in those norms (for whatever reason). There are atheists who will look at other religions but, again, decide to remain atheists, so your assertion that "you don't see atheists bothering with any investigation of other faiths" is false. Speaking personally, I am an atheist, but have strong sympathy for paganism. I'm not into nature spirits or deities, but I fully concur with the pagan outlook towards the world. As far as researching paganism goes, well, I can tell you I have looked into it a great deal, have discussed it with my pagan friends, have participated in pagan festivals and have bookshelves groaning under the weight of books on druidry, celtic spiritual traditions, Saami shamanism, Native American traditions, Australian Aboriginal traditions....

"Secondly, since there is so much overlap of central spiritual practicesand moral teachings among the Great World Faiths, there is less necessity to do so than might be assumed, since one is not 'missing-out' on anything in terms of prayer, meditation, quiet, tranquility and compassion for others by being a Christian instead of whichever else."

Good. That's addressing the title of the thread.

"Thirdly, I wonder how often such a demand is levelled by atheists against Buddhists, Hindus, Odinists, New Age animists or Neo-pagans? I suspect a number of double-standards here, which should be owned up to and dealt with."

My `demand' was aimed at theists ie those that believe in a deity. You seem to think that I am asking only Christians the question. Read the opening post again. I reckon it will be mainly Christians that respond, given the nature of this board, but I would encourage those of other faiths to respond. I hinted at this when I asked Gabriela why she was not a pagan or a scientologist. It'll be a boring thread if only Christians responded (I don't mean that in the way it could be interpreted! What I mean is that views from a diversity of religions would be more interesting than just the views from one tradition).

"What have you got for your disapproval of other faiths?"

Lack of evidence.

David

"Regarding the default position, every single person was born an atheist."

Why do you think every single person was born an atheist and not an agnostic?

We are all born atheists because our earliest learning is of tangible things like touch, smell sound and taste. It requires a certain of intellectual development to even begin to grasp the concept of a 'higher being' that cannot be found using the 5 senses.

Highlander, i think you'll find Hercules was the son of a Greek God, a bit like Jesus. He was just a bit more interesting, more action and less waffle. Rather like comparing say Harrison Ford and Hugh Grant.
Also correct me if i'm wrong, but was Zeus not the father of the Gods?

L. Anderson-porter

"We are all born atheists because our earliest learning is of tangible things like touch, smell sound and taste. It requires a certain of intellectual development to even begin to grasp the concept of a 'higher being' that cannot be found using the 5 senses."

Right. I think may intellect may not have developed enough, because I can't follow the logic here either. Don't you need to grasp the concept of a 'higher being' to start with, in order to say I DON'T believe in that 'higher being' ?

Ah no you don't.
To believe in a concept one must first be aware the concept exists. If you are unaware that a higher being may exist, how can you believe in it?

I agree with LAP's responses here. Belief or conscious rejection of that belief can only come with awareness. Perhaps infancy is the only stage of true atheism. Of course, that possibility could be up for discussion.

L. Anderson-porter, David,

"To believe in a concept one must first be aware the concept exists."

But that is valid for NOT believing in a certain concept, as well. An atheist says 'I don't believe IN GOD', an atheist doesn't say 'I don't believe.' You don't believe in WHAT? You need to be aware of that concept first in order to say you don't believe in IT.

That's why agnosticism is actually nearer to the 'default' position, it doesn't do either, 'believe' or 'not believe', it just doesn't know.

And I say 'nearer' because ... at birth we are really neither. We're not atheists, theists, agnostics, etc... for all of them one needs first to be aware of what they actually mean. You cannot say I don't believe in 'something' without knowing first what that something is that you don't believe in. You cannot say I don't know if 'something' exists or not, without having an idea at least of what that 'something' is that you decide you simply don't know. And, of course, you cannot say either I believe in 'something' without being aware of what that 'something' might be.

So I don't see how at birth one could be any of these. But agnosticism is logically nearer to the default position, as it doesn't do either, believe or not believe.

Gabriela

There are many many things that I don't believe in, not because I am aware of them and have considered them, but just the opposite - I am unaware of them. There may well be a goblin god out there called Fred, but I have never believed it because I have not been aware of it (until now!).
The same would apply to an infant. They are born not believing in god (and is thus an atheist), because they are unaware of the concept.

David,

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do understand what you're saying, but, look at your own words: 'they are born not believing IN GOD' - how can they NOT believe (or believe) in God, if there is no such concept of God in their awareness. They are not aware of anything, so they are simply born a blank page (from this point of view) with no 'label' attached to it, of either nature.

I suppose we may be seeing the same thing from two different angles. From where I see it, I cannot attach any such labels as atheist, theist, agnostic to a newly born. It is neither. So...agree to disagree : )

PS: If you are unaware of different things, you cannot have the thought in your mind 'I don't believe in ...' In what? The mind must have FIRST an idea/concept of 'something' before having the thought 'I don't believe in ..." What you are not aware of, you are simply not aware of, you neither believe, nor disbelieve, you are simply not aware, you cannot even think about something that you are not aware of first. Just a last try to make my view a bit clearer ....

Gabriela,

I disagree that having a lack of belief in a thing first requires one to know what that thing is. If I lack any donkeys, do I need to know what a donkey is? The only difference is that if I know what donkeys are, then I become aware that I lack any. But I still lack any donkeys, just as I did before I knew what they were.

David is right. Children are born atheists in that they lack any belief in a god or gods. They also lack any political convictions because they are unaware of politics.
If atheism were a positive assertion that God didn't exist, then you would be right and children, lacking any knowledge of God, wouldn't be atheists. But atheism isn't belief either one way or another but a lack of belief. Newborns certainly lack belief.

Hi Gabriela
As you say, let's agree to disagree. It's just a label, after all. I hadn't reckoned on this thread going in this particular direction, but it's been interesting none the less. I'm still trying to get my head around the stuff on alternative realities on the other thread you created!

Okay, Sam..

Whatever makes you happy.

hi im barry, in reply to david, atheism means disbelief in god. As a babe we are unaware, we neither believe nor disbelieve so we are neither christian [or any denomination who has belief in god/gods] or atheist a disbeliever in god. An agnostic holds that we know nothing of things outside the material world, even these have to be aware of the difference, so as a babe i think we are innocents. This takes me to your question, "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.... By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by Gods word." From early times mankind has twisted and used gods word the bible for their own ends so now the truth is veiled. please, if you want to find out the truth about God read and study the bible, the book What Does The Bible Really Teach produced by Jehovah`s Witnesses, or you can read it or send for it free, go to www.watchtower.org. Jesus called himself the son of God [not a trinity as most mainstream religions preach, this is an ancient pagan teaching originating in babylon and spreading through the world by Egyptian, Greek, Medo-Persian, etc until constantine the Roman leader in 4th century AD made it a Christian teaching to appease the pagan element of his new christian/pagan society.] These words are Jesus` words John 8:32 " and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Thanks for listening hope my comments help you in your search for truth and also with the discussion.