If Buddhism is seen as an 'atheist' religion, if Buddhists don't believe in anything existing apart from this physical world, if they believe that nothing will remain of them when they die, how do those Buddhist monks justify spending their whole life in a monastery, doing nothing else but praying, meditating. What is the purpose of that? Enlightenment? What and who does it help if after spending 50 years in a monastery I am all of a sudden enlightened and next day I die?
Also, why do they need to have a Buddha statue and why do Buddhists honour such a statue, does it not seem 'silly' to bow before a stone?
Why the rituals, the specific clothes, ceremonies, praying ? What role do they have?
Do Buddhists KNOW what Buddha knew? Or are they only following a method, a path that will enable them to know as well, thus trusting that Buddha wasn't crazy? And ... know WHAT?
And is belief necessary, belief in the method, in the fact that I may not be spending all my life in a Buddhist monastery for nothing.
Can they guarantee enlightenment? Can they show me any evidence that there is such a thing as 'enlightenment' - Why should I believe them?
Also, would it be possible, for a kind Buddhist to explain what is meant by this, in such a way that it makes sense, to the rational mind:
Buddha's Zen
Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."
"If Buddhism is seen as an 'atheist' religion, if Buddhists don't believe in anything existing apart from this physical world"
You will find that Buddhism is more generally described as a non-theistic religion rather than atheistic. To complicate matters further, it does have its own supernatural figures who seem to get integrated from the particular culture it finds itself in. So, for instance, you will find deities from the Hindu pantheon appearing in Buddhist sutras. Of course, their role is secondary and they just tend to turn up to receive teachings from the Buddha!
You are mistaken if you think that all Buddhists will be materialists - far from it. Of the Buddhists I've known, I can't think of one who was a materialist. The impression I get is that mind is seen as being primary rather than matter. You need to have this confirmed by individual Buddhists, but you are not safe, I suspect, in assuming a materialistic perspective.
It's very difficult to define what all Buddhists believe as this will be different for different people and depends on many different things including the encouragement that Buddhists receive to question everything, so... a huge range of variables. Here's a quotation that tries to explain it in one paragraph:
Pamela White affirms the beliefs of a Buddhist.
THIS I BELIEVE: That phenomena do not have any kind of demonstrable, intrinsic existence. That anything that is the composite sum of other parts is, logically, impermanent. That suffering is a given in any form of existence where confusion and ignorance are present. That when confusion and ignorance have been definitively eliminated, and goodness, caring, and wisdom have entirely taken their place, that is true happiness. http://www.tricycle.com/insights-and-outtakes/a-slow-true-path
well,buddhism might be called agnostic where God etc.is concerned.It makes no definitive statements for or against.It tackles the 'ultimate truth' and 'spiritual' life from a completely different perspective,as does taoism,the yoga of patanjali,and the higher self in hinduism.There is a surprising amount of it in the traditional theistic religions which is ignored and misinterpreted usually.Just read Jesus in the gospel of thomas.Pure mystical enlightened taoism.You must become as little children and enter the kingdom of heaven. The problem is most buddhists and all those on the path of awakened non dual consciousness,if they weren't atheists to begin with,usually become so by the nature of the awakened experience and by being wholly involved with a non theistic practices and people and belief.
"You must become as little children and enter the kingdom of heaven."
Ohh...don't say this on this forum, that's a secret. Adults are not allowed to know that, they'll start asking you where this 'Kingdom of Heaven' is and if you can prove it to them. : )
Are you a Buddhist? I'm curious to find out if there is a Buddhist who considers him/herself enlightened and says loud and clear there is no such a thing as God and we're pure physical beings and absolutely nothing remains of us. And in case they do this, why would they bother to find out the ultimate truth? If that's the ultimate truth, well...all atheists / non-theists on this site can tell them that, they wouldn't need to meditate and .. .whatever it is that they do. See what I mean...something just doesn't make sense. They may say there is no 'personal' God, like a person waiting in Heaven, but you say from agnostics they turn into atheists? And that there is no God at all....it just doesn't make sense. Why would Buddhists monks spend all their life in monasteries, wasting their life?
you said: "See what I mean...something just doesn't make sense. They may say there is no 'personal' God, like a person waiting in Heaven, but you say from agnostics they turn into atheists? And that there is no God at all....it just doesn't make sense. Why would Buddhists monks spend all their life in monasteries, wasting their life?"
This is known as the argument from incredulity. Just because you can't believe something to be true does not necessarily make it untrue. The monks probably genuinely believe in what they are doing - to them it isn't a waste of their lives.
As you know, I don't believe any of it - Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, FSMism or any other 'ism you can think of. I believe in Reality. Perhaps this means I am wasting my life? Just think of all the churches I could have gone to and prayers I could have said. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Buddhism is not a religion & not a belief system. The Buddha gently ridiculed the very idea of a 'creator god'. What he taught is that 'suffering is optional' (to quote one contemporary teacher). Suffering happens when we regard the world from the perspective of 'me' versus 'other' & are constantly obsessed what 'I' want / don't want. The Buddha taught that this 'self-view' can be seen through & thus we can come to live 'self-lessly' - naturally at ease with life as it is, and realising our natural capacity for a boundless, compassionate heart. That's it. Anyone can realise this by following one of the many versions of the Buddhist path to awakening that have developed over the centuries. No-one can 'prove' our capacity to awaken through rational explanation. The Buddhist path is hands-on. If you practice it, you come to see whether these assertions are 'true' or not. If you don't, you can carry on with circular conceptualisations forever. This is exactly what we're doing anyway - Buddhists call it 'samsara' - it's the nature of the 'normal' (unawakened) mind, and the cause of all the trouble in the world.
"This is known as the argument from incredulity. Just because you can't believe something to be true does not necessarily make it untrue. The monks probably genuinely believe in what they are doing - to them it isn't a waste of their lives."
I am not 'arguing' here and I am not saying they don't believe in what they are doing. I would just like to understand how they see the idea of no God at all compatible with what they are doing. That's all.
And do Buddhism followers not need to BELIEVE in Buddha's teachings, to BELIEVE that Buddha was enlightened?
Why do they honour the statue of Buddha like a God? Why do they bow? Why do they pray?
"No-one can 'prove' our capacity to awaken through rational explanation. The Buddhist path is hands-on. If you practice it, you come to see whether these assertions are 'true' or not."
What's the difference between a Christ follower and a Buddha follower then?
hi Gabriela,i'm not a buddhist,but i am a taoist which is very similar,although also a follower of the heavenly father,angels,eternal life,heaven etc. I think some buddhists practice and follow the buddhist religion because it makes them feel better,more relaxed,more at peace,more capable of dealing with emotional and practical problems,and often like the community of friendship of 'like minded' people.Of course all this has nothing to do with the ultimate truth.I think other buddhists are involved because they want to gain spiritual experiences but don't like the idea of God and the heavenly hierarchy,(maybe they had a bad time having it rammed down thier throats when they were children?),so they hope that meditation and 'non god' religions and 'spiritual' paths might give it to them.I think the third and most important group are those who seek or experience 'enlightenment',waking up from this material world.It can be done,and no obvious connection with God,heaven,the angels or eternal life is nessesary.In this experience of 'waking up' you could call it a psychological 'peak experience',but in my experience,this would be undervaluing and degrading the 'spiritual nature' of the experience,as it is most wondrous,completely free of all our human conditioned nature and reveals the underlying basis of all existence and what i REALLY am as an identity.So,pretty powerful stuff.
Of course, ‘awakening’ is just a metaphor. What’s woken up to is that what we believe to be our ‘self’ or ‘me’ or ‘I’ is simply a fabrication – we don’t exist as separate ‘entities’. We are part of process, part of the whole, part of nature. So Buddhists explore their direct experience through meditation and other methods to discover what is actually the case. This leads, eventually, to a seeing through of the very deeply held erroneous views and afflictive emotions which underlie suffering.
This is not a ‘belief’ system. A belief system would involve believing something like ‘we all have something called original sin and Jesus had to come into the world and die on a cross to save us’ as a description of reality. This is just a belief, a mere conceptual fabrication, and like all conceptual fabrications, it can be argued for and against endlessly using further conceptual fabrications which just go round and round in circles forever. As in these kinds of forum!
In Buddhism there needs to be a kind of provisional ‘trust’ – like, ‘ok you say this meditation practice will help me calm my mind, so I’ll provisionally put it into practice and find out for myself whether what you say about it is the case or not’. So you do the practice and you find out for yourself whether it ‘does what it says on the packet’. If it does, then ‘trust’ turns into ‘confidence’, and so Buddhist practice proceeds in that fashion until the whole fabricated view of ‘me’ eventually begins to collapse and things are increasingly seen simply and wonderfully as they are.
As for Buddha statues, they are just bits of wood, stone metal etc. Bowing is in the context of taking this as a symbol of our own awakening – it’s a way of connecting with our own true nature. And it’s not obligatory – it’s quite possible to wake up without bowing, or using any particular external form.
Buddhist practice is about realising directly what all human beings have in common. At the level of beliefs, the billions of people who call themselves ‘Christian’ have a huge number of conflicting views and opinions, which manifest as different sects and churches that are often in conflict – historically, often in mortal conflict. This is what comes from holding fast to views and beliefs (People who regard themselves as Buddhists aren’t immune to this either – it’s a universal trait of unawakened human beings). The Buddha’s teaching is about deconstructing and letting go of all attachment to beliefs and realising directly the way things are, the truth of things that is right here, right now, ‘hidden in plain sight’.
I can’t spare any more time to write on this thread right now. If you’re really interested in finding out more about Buddhism … as distinct from having a jolly old debate … you could probably do worse than check out this book (ok, it’s by me … but I’ve had plenty of feedback that people find it clear and to the point): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Buddhist-Path-Awakening-Tejananda/dp/1899579028/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257620897&sr=1-1
To respond to some of these questions-we believe that everyone has "buddha nature"or potential to achieve the same enlightened state as Shakyamuni Buddha.What continues after death is the subtle mind,a continuum of our tenendencies,thoughts and karma.So our meditation developes virtuous tendencies which continue after death. The main purpose of statues is to remind us of our own potential to achieve the same enlightened state.Also they inspire me to feel gratitude that these teaching have been passed down through countless generations from someone who lived 2,500 years ago and motivate me in my practice.Ultimately,yes we will know what the Buddha knew-I see Buddhism as like providing a map to a great treasure.Without the map,it would be very hard to find the treasure ourselves. The Buddha said not to believe anything simply because he taught it.Faith is less important than in most religions. But a certain amount of faith that enlightenment is possible and trust in the "map" is helpful. Buddhism is like a medicine to free us of all suffering and bring about permanent happiness and peace of mind. But the medicine is no use if we just look at the bottle-we have to drink it and see if it works!
To respond to some of these questions-we believe that everyone has "buddha nature"or potential to achieve the same enlightened state as Shakyamuni Buddha.What continues after death is the subtle mind,a continuum of our tenendencies,thoughts and karma.So our meditation developes virtuous tendencies which continue after death. The main purpose of statues is to remind us of our own potential to achieve the same enlightened state.Also they inspire me to feel gratitude that these teaching have been passed down through countless generations from someone who lived 2,500 years ago and motivate me in my practice.Ultimately,yes we will know what the Buddha knew-I see Buddhism as like providing a map to a great treasure.Without the map,it would be very hard to find the treasure ourselves. The Buddha said not to believe anything simply because he taught it.Faith is less important than in most religions. But a certain amount of faith that enlightenment is possible and trust in the "map" is helpful. Buddhism is like a medicine to free us of all suffering and bring about permanent happiness and peace of mind. But the medicine is no use if we just look at the bottle-we have to drink it and see if it works!
Strictly speaking, Buddha's original message was Agnostic in the most literal sense - my understanding is that Buddha was asked whether God existed & replied that it was a waste of time to wonder about this because you will never find the answer in this realm & it doesn't help you here & now. And whether God exists or not, it's important to meditate so as to learn to be in the moment & be nice to all living beings, etc.
As Buddhism spread from country to country, it took on many different forms. In Tibet Buddhism was mixed with the shamanic folk religion of that reason, called 'Bon', which contained many deities & demons which were integrated into Buddhism. They talk a lot about what happens after you die & being reincarnated. This is contrasted by Japanese Zen Buddhism, where there are no deities as such, although they still chant to statues because culturally, the Japanese were traditionally into that sort of thing. Another explanation is one given by Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh, who says that the Buddha represents everything in the universe, including yourself, so when you bow to a Buddha statue, you are bowing to yourself, ie showing yourself respect by disciplining yourself in this way & showing humility.
"Can they guarantee enlightenment? Can they show me any evidence that there is such a thing as 'enlightenment' - Why should I believe them?"
No they cannot, & you should not believe them. It's no good deciding what's right & wrong here & now from reading a book, especially if it's a book which was written hundreds of years ago in a completely different culture. This cannot help you here & now. All the Soto Zen teachers I've heard of who came West all said that Westerners are too hung up on 'Enlightenment' - it isn't a goal you work towards, like trying to get into Heaven, it's being in a state where you are able to accept what you have in the present without bringing your own baggage to the party eg belief in God or anything else - just enjoying what you have for what it is & not being dependent on it because all things pass.
If anyone tells you they can guarantee Enlightenment, my advice is - run! Just try putting their techniques into practice for yourself & take a good, hard look at your life & ask yourself if they are beneficial. Some on this thread have said that SOME faith is necessary - I reckon that NONE is required. Try & test everything.
"What and who does it help if after spending 50 years in a monastery I am all of a sudden enlightened and next day I die?"
It would probably make that death easier to face but whether or not it's worth that mount of effort is for the individual experiencing it to decide, I guess. But Enlightenment doesn't really work that way, ie one day you're as you are now & the next, bang, you're a spiritual superbeing with magic powers. Again, Many Japanese Soto teachers say Enlightenment is no use whatsoever. Again, it isn't a certificate you should try to earn. I suspect many Buddhists do see it in such simplistic terms but it's really all just about being in the moment - nothing more (but then that's harder to achieve than it sounds in words). Why worry about ticking a particular box, adding to a non-existent spiritual CV?
I meditate because doing so it has positive effects on me which are noticeable to myself & people who know me, who commented on changes in me without knowing I was meditating! But that's my story - don't take my word for it, find your own. Meditate for yourself & see if it helps you.
"Also, would it be possible, for a kind Buddhist to explain what is meant by this, in such a way that it makes sense, to the rational mind:"
That's a nice quote, where did you get it?
I can only explain how I make sense of it. I don't know if it will be meaningful to anyone else or if it's what the author meant.
The first half - eg "I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles", etc - is saying that worldly power & riches are pointless because they don't bring happiness. They can offer fleeting pleasure but not permanent joy. After all, if you buy a nice car, then for a while you may be happy but after a while, you will want a newer, nicer car. And when it breaks down & you have to pay for insurance, etc, will that make you happy? Riches all have strings attached. But of course that's all well & good as long as you're not starving to death.
"I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians" is what I said in my earlier post about 'Enlightenment'# (I hate that word) being about getting rid of all our preconceptions & accepting things for the way they are. This is done through experience, rather than reading books, which will give you more opinions, not fewer.
"I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime."
This is what I was saying about not getting hung up about Enlightenment. Meditation is a strong foundation for the mind but Nirvana, conceptions & 'holy paths' are just dreams & empty words. Like TV, religious rituals, etc (I assume that's what 'holy paths' are) distract us like flowers in front of our eyes but they have no substance to them. Just meditate.
"I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons."
Beautiful words. I don't know much about dragons myself but I guess a 'serpentine dance' is slippery, moves about a lot, so is ill-defined, not set in stone. After all, right & wrong differ from society to society, they are often relative. Beliefs, too, are changeable like the weather & do not represent Truth. After all, when people worry too much about whether one religious group is more right than another, it seems to mostly lead to bloodshed or at least arguments.
Thanks for starting this thread, Gabriela, it's given me much to think about. I hope my long posts haven't bored people too much! Really it can be summed up in as 'don't worry about Enlightenment or what others promise you, just try meditation & judge for yourself if it benefits you or not'.
"I'm curious to find out if there is a Buddhist who considers him/herself enlightened and says loud and clear there is no such a thing as God and we're pure physical beings and absolutely nothing remains of us. And in case they do this, why would they bother to find out the ultimate truth? If that's the ultimate truth, well...all atheists / non-theists on this site can tell them that, they wouldn't need to meditate and .. .whatever it is that they do."
Ok, I'm a Budhdist, strictly speaking I don't think Enlightenment is a helpful concept (as the qoute in your OP also testifies) but I think I do know what Buddha was on about. And no, I don't believe in God - as you put it, I think we're purely physical beings, nothing but rotting flesh remains & there is no Afterlife.
And I feel that makes meditation even more important than it would be if there was an afterlife or an old bloke with a big beard handing out sweets to people who played by his rules. Because showing respect leads to getting respect, so while only rotting flesh will remain of my body, hopefully my becoming a slightly nicer person, there will be a little more niceness around which has rubbed off on others. If not, it doesn't really matter much, as I enjoyed the ride & my conscience is clear.
I must emphasise that Buddhist is strictly Agnostic & while I accept that Agnosticism is strictly more logical than Aetheism, I feel that what you might call the 'circumstantial evidence' points towards there being no God. That's just me - remember Buddhists can believe quite radically different things, since it's not about blindly adhering to a doctrine (or at least it shouldn't be).
"...why would they bother to find out the ultimate truth." Umm, they're not looking for any 'ultimate truth', just a way of sorting out their own minds minds. Also, a lot of Japanese Buddhists will be monks for jsut a year & they take what they have learned back into the secular world - check out Eat Sleep Sit: My Year at Japan's Most Rigorous Zen Temple for more details. And it's this word 'truth' that's important - whether we intrinsically 'like' the truth or not is irrelevant.
"Why would Buddhists monks spend all their life in monasteries, wasting their life?"
What could they do which would be more rational? Would a life spent working in a call-centre, watching X-Factor & getting drunk at weekends be any more meaningful? Having done a little bit of both, my experience is, intense meditation practise is certainly no less pleasurable than the latter. Ultimately, the monks in question do not feel they are wasting their lives - if you do, then don't do it yourself.
"Why would Buddhists monks spend all their life in monasteries, wasting their life?"
"What could they do which would be more rational?"
lol ... okay, if you call that 'rational'. I'm sure they are not feeling they are wasting their lives (in fact I know that they are not wasting their lives), but that's the point, what is the * rational/logical * explanation to why they are not feeling they're wasting their lives, living all their life in a monastery and meditating. No family, no children, no sex, no helping other human beings, not contributing to society as a whole, no scientific discoveries that would lead to a cancer cure... no 'ultimate truth' to be discovered, no God to be discovered, nothing ... just living in a monastery all their lives meditating. Does this really make * sense * to you?
"Sorry I'll shut up now!"
Don't : )
You 'think' you know what Buddha was on about. But ... do you know?
The thing is, there came a point in Buddha's life when ... 'something' happened that made Buddha Buddha and not Jesus or Sam Woodward.
I agree completely with the 'method' and agnosticism of Buddhism, because if you are looking to 'find' a specific thing, you might start having 'visions' instead of seeing the naked reality and truth. But .. but ... do you * know * what Buddha knew?
Nice interpretation of the quote. I just .. googled Zen/Buddhism quotes and chose one : )
This discussion makes me think about when I first started practising. I found that the view from a Buddhist mind makes no sense until we're looking from a Buddhist mind. It's can very easily be "just words" until you're practising and experiencing it.
Many people here have been talking about how Buddhism is a practical way to move towards understanding they way things are, true reality, if you like...
Here's how I try to explain it:
The experience of true reality is that we are everything and that we are full of everything. Because everything is us then nothing has a separate identity from us. This means that true reality contains no separateness. It's impossible to experience true reality from the point of view of something separate from it. Because we can't be separate from it, true reality is everything right now; so it's ordinary reality. We are the universe experiencing itself, here, now, doing the ordinary things we do. However, it's nothing like an ordinary experience of ordinary reality.
From this point of view, spending your life in a monastery is no more or less relevant than not spending your life in a monastery.
This may not be useful, but it's the best I can do - sorry.
It's not possible for things to be separate if they are the same thing. It's like how a wave is related to the sea... the wave cannot be separate from the sea, the sea cannot be separate from the wave. However, perception can be a deceptive thing.
~~~ On your comment about mass suicide: It's possible that both these 2 things (living in a monastery or committing mass suicide) could be potential or real parts of some people's lives. Personally, I don't think that it's very useful to compare them.
This is why I apologised - as has been said in an earlier post, the first step to understanding the way Buddhists see things is trusting enough to start practising. Without practice, it can easily degenerate into strings of words so my apology was for adding words which could add confusion. Opinions, however clever or well thought out, are not the same thing as reality because a word and the thing it describes are not the same thing. We can only experience reality by allowing ourselves to be reality. Buddhists would say we can do this by practising meditation, other paths have other methods. I'm not saying that anyone should start practising meditation, but it is a way to move towards understanding. Each person bases their choice about whether and what to practise on how important this is to them.
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