One of the continual arguments that an atheist will try to use as an excuse not to believe in God is the suggestion that God had to 'come from some where' or 'be created.'

Nuclear submarines have the capability of running silent and running deep for years on end. If it were not for the need to replenish food stocks for the crew and make repairs to the hull the nuclear reactor has the ongoing sustaining power to keep the submarine running without refueling because of its own inherent power.

Now, when an author writes a book and into the story he has little blue people and little purple people and for the sake of the plot and the story-line, throughout the location of the world that these blue and purple people lives there are white lines and black lines and the blue people can only walk on the black lines and the purple people can only walk on the white lines, but when that author steps out of his home he does not start looking for a particular colored line to walk on for the simple reason that the author is not subject to the laws which he has written into his creation in the book.

God is self-existent, he is not subject to the laws which govern us such as gravity, time, space, being born or created, He is his own power much like the sun which he has created. God never was created, God has always been and always will be and to try and understand that concept with a finite brain is just stupid, you just have to believe it.

'Just believing it' is exactly what the atheists does when it comes to the origin of matter and the first spark of life which they can not explain, they just accept and believe their 'scientifically researched' psycho-babble about matter and life and then scoff and mock the Christian for believing in a self-existent, all-powerful, all knowing benevolent creator who always has been and always will be.

The atheist likes to flatter themselves by giving themselves the title of being the 'intellectuals, thinkers who are rooted in scientific rational, reasonable explanations of 'truth and facts.'

It's strange to see atheists excusing their religion of atheism with its doctrines, ideology and dogmas while all the time accusing the Christian of exactly what they are doing, which is 'believing' their doctrines and dogmas.

So the answer to the question ... Where did God come from? Who created God?

He is self-existent and has never been created.
He always has been.
He always will be.
He is the all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present creator who is not subject to the laws which govern each one of us - His creation.

Is this trolling or is it a poe? Frankly, at this point I'm prepared to believe either.

You appear somewhat confused M.James.
Surely the onus is on you. A confirmed believer. To convince me, who is not convinced. And has seen no tangable evidence of a 'god' to change my mind.
Just because there are unanswered questions in life, science, blue and purple people and submarines. Does not make me want to create a 'god' to stop me needing to question and rationalise existence.
As to what YOU think about others opinions and their views on science and the world, well. I'm speechless!

Hi Sam,

Point of Entry? Practice of Empathy? Purgative or Emetic? Part of Everything? Prisoner of the Ether? Previously Owned Enema? Practical Old Elephant? Plague of Emptiness?

I give up. What's a poe?

Wait, wait ... don't tell me ... Purity of Essence?

M James

So if you have this insight into god and his existence, can you explain to me what he was doing during the past eternity before he created everything?

Heavens ..
common sense tells us that if there is a child there MUST be a parent ... so to answer your question of providing 'proof' of a God, use your common sense ... creation = creator ... as for the 'where did the creator come from?' Refer to my original post in this discussion ... Psalm 37:12-13 your day will come!

Hunter ...
The petty name calling of me being a 'troll' (I am sure that means something to you) got old a long time ago .. and it just makes you look very childish ... two words ... grow up ...
Psalm 37:12-13 your day will come!

Groom ..
I am a man with a finite mind and at this point God has chosen not to reveal to me what He was doing before, what we call creation ... the answer to your question .. I do not know.
Psalm 37:12-13 - Your day will come!

M James

As you have special access, you could try asking.

Hi Harry,

A poe is when someone expresses the opposite point of view to the one that they hold in order to make the real adherents of that point of view look like raving morons. The point of a poe is that you can't tell the difference between someone truly expressing a fundamentalist view and someone pretending to.

The only thing that makes me think that M. James is probably expressing his true opinion is that, if I were creating a parody, I wouldn't go as far as he does. It's just a little too ridiculous.

I dislike that he makes other Christians look bad. I'm all for judging people as individuals. In isolation, his posts could give the wrong impression about other, very reasonable people, some of whom on these forums I've come to like.

M James

'common sense tells us that if there is a child there MUST be a parent ... so to answer your question of providing 'proof' of a God, use your common sense ... creation = creator ... as for the 'where did the creator come from?''

To take your logic forward, whatever is created must have had a creator, rather implies that god too must have had a creator. Muttering on about outside space and time etc. (how can you possibly know this?) is just a case of special pleading, but carries no conviction or logic.

However, if you postulate that god can exist outside of nothing, then the logical position is that anything else can, including the singularity present at the start of the universe. Thus god creating the universe from nothing is no different from the universe being created out of the singularity, effectively from nothing. Again, you can't have it both ways. The real difference is that the big bang is being diligently investigated and will, I have no doubt, be explained. God on the other hand has no explanation, has no evidence and is being pushed ever more into the gaps. One day there will be no more gaps and then he will be able to RIP.

David Groom;

"whatever is created must have had a creator, rather implies that god too must have had a creator"

Surely the whole point of the assertion was that God was not created but is self-existent...

Whilst I think this argument is very clumsily expressed, you aren't really grasping it.

If ANYTHING can entirely account for itself, that thing would be GOD
NOTHING in the universe entirely accounts for itself

"if you postulate that god can exist outside of nothing, then the logical position is that anything else can"

This is nonsense...if you postulate that one thing can exist outside of nothing, but that that one thing is inaccessible, then the logical position is that NOTHING ELSE can.
So the question is whether that one thing that can exist self-sufficiently actually does exist. Incidentaly, you are claiming that it does, but you are calling it "singularity"...whatever that might be. I would suggest that the ONE thing that can exist self-sufficiently would have much more content than giving it the meaningless description "singularity"...if by "singularity" you mean "one and unique", then, yes, if anything can exist self-sufficiently it must be one and unique....but that's the opposite of what you claimed earlier!

Bernard ..

FANTASTIC ... well done ... yes my expression is clumsy LOL ... God bless you .. your day will come!

Hi Sam,

Thanks for the clarification.

As a clue, M. James has pretty good access to an electronic version of the Bible, and he knows his way around it pretty well.

I think the "your time will come" signature is a rather nice touch. If you guys keep feeding his habit, he may become downright literary.

Groom ...

You said .. 'As you have special access, you could try asking' ... you mistake the almighty, all-knowning, ever-present God as some type of slave who must answer to my every request and question ... through out the scriptures we are instructed to have a healthy, holy reverence for the Lord God almighty ... so the answer to your small minded demand of God to 'TELL ME OR ELSE' is denied ... I am going to keep my heart in a quite and reverential attitude and whatever God deems worthy to reveal to me I will be grateful for but will not DEMAND anything more ... I will continue to worship Him for the grace and mercy he has already extended to me ... Psalms 37:12-13 Your day will come!

[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

You don't have to DEMAND an answer, you could ask god nicely.

Y'know, like, when someone prays....

Hi Harry,

If M. James' posts aren't poes, then he is a troll. He has nothing worth saying. All he does is preach and insult. He doesn't answer any of the reasonable questions put to him and has shown no ability to hold a debate since, as you already know, debating involves more than just posting opinions and assertions. I see no reason to answer any of his posts and stand with those others who say, "Don't feed the troll!". His becoming literary would involve him changing, evolving if you will, and I've seen no evidence that this could happen. Perhaps this will earn me a vitriolic your-day-will-come but if so, then I will be proven right.

The quote "Your day will Come!" is both a blessing and a warning (that is why I use it) .. for those who live according to God will revealed in the word of God 'your day will come' is an encouragement to the believer that God will bless/protect/strengthen you in the midst of any trial, test or temptation you are having but for those who have deluded themselves about the 'non' existence of God, if not in this world, 'your day (of judgement) will come!' is a clear warning that you will not get away with your rebellion or unbelief (yes unbelief is a sin) ... Psalms 37:12-13 You day will come!

Murry ...

Why don't you 'Ask God nicely' if you are open hearted and open minded you will be surprised that you will get an answer and what the answer is ... or are you to scared that you will get an answer and be proved wrong with all your anti God ranting

It seems to me that the main crux of M.James's statement 'Where did God come from' is directed chiefly in his text at non-believers and posted on 10 Aug 2009 13:36 BST and has still at the present time of 10 Aug 2009 19:29 BST not been answered satisfactorily if at all.
This undoubtedly proves these atheists are lacking in powers of true perception.
I mean how much time do you need, and how many scholars and theologists does it take for God's sake?
Mind you. To be fair. I'm a reasonable person, and will give them a couple more days to come up with the goods.
And if, and it's a big IF! They come up with the answer 'Where did God come from'. I would consider these er, atheists, er? hum? er? free from hellfire!

M James

I simply said 'try' not 'demand.' You decline to try. Fine, but don't put words into my post that are not there.

I have already done so.

Nothing happened...

I would hardly describe my contributions here as 'anti-god ranting' perhaps you should take your own advice and learn to converse little more politely.

Or are you just another hypocrite?

Groom ..
I did not decline .. I am not the one who needs/wants the answer ... I am happy not knowing about stupid questions like 'what was God doing before creation' ... Who cares? What difference does that make to me to you or me? ... so that is why I said you should 'Ask God nicely' yourself ... why are you trying to get away from, how did you put it ...'Y'know, like, when someone prays ....' Go ahead, pray yourself, sincerely with a genuine desire for an answer ... what's the worse that could happen ... you could get an answer that will prove your atheism wrong?

M James

Why is it a stupid question? Its quite interesting. After all what could a supreme being be doing with absolutely nothing in existence for an infinite period of time?

Like AJ Murray, I don't get any reply, so I just thought that those with a direct line to god might be able to.

Bernard,

'Surely the whole point of the assertion was that God was not created but is self-existent...'

It is certainly an assertion. The question is what do we have that bcks up such a statement.

'If ANYTHING can entirely account for itself, that thing would be GOD
NOTHING in the universe entirely accounts for itself'

I do not believe this now to be the case. There appear to be certain fundamental particles which can be observed coming into existence and then disappearing, all from nothing. Now it seems to me that if the universe can be shown to have come into existence through entirely natural processes, and such a theory is edging ever closer, then where does that leave god. Certainly nowhere in the creation of the universe.

'This is nonsense...if you postulate that one thing can exist outside of nothing, but that that one thing is inaccessible, then the logical position is that NOTHING ELSE can.'

Why so? Why does the existence of something outside of nothing preclude something else also existing outside of nothing. Surely the default position is that nothing can exist in such conditions and as soon as one thing can then there is no reason why something else can also.