Hello to all atheists of this Amazon planet.

I am curious to know, what do you generally believe in? Do you believe in yourself, in love, in friendship, in music, in science, in logic, in ... absolutely nothing ?

And what made you believe in whatever each one of you believe in?

Thank you.

A strange question, Gabriela!
As atheists, we lack a belief in deities. That's it. Apart from that, we are just regular people with the same hopes, dreams and fears as anyone else. Of course I believe in love, friendship and so on., but believing in love and friendship is different from believing in a god. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that I value these things rather than believe in them.

David

I do ask strange questions sometimes, I do apologize :) I would very much hope that you are 'regular people' and I know that most of you - if not all - believe generally in things I gave as example. But I would be interested to know, of all these 'things', and others I may not have mentioned, in which one do you believe most? If you think about your life, about yourself, is there anything in particular that you count as a 'belief' - whatever that may be - a belief that motivates you, that helps you overcome problems, that gives you hope. I did manage to understand that atheists don't believe in any deities. But that's not the issue, I am curious to know if there are any other particular beliefs in your life that really stand out, that drive you forward, that give you confidence, hope, motivation....whatever those may be. What are they (if there are any) and why those?

Gabriela
" I did manage to understand that atheists don't believe in any deities."

Sorry, I wasn't being patronising when I explained what an atheist is.

To answer your question, I suppose in order to get through my life, I have to have a certain amount of self-belief. If I didn't, I would give up everytime an obstacle was put in front of me. Any confidence or motivation, ultimately, has to come from within oneself, although friends and family can certainly contribute.

However, It's Saturday night. It's 8pm. I really, really believe there's a pint down the road with my name written all over it. That's the only thing I want to believe in tonight!

David

I didn't take it as 'patronizing', (I was actually laughing at myself with that answer ...) so, nothing to be sorry about. : )

Believing in yourself is good, and I think you can believe 'fully' - not only with 'a certain amount' : )

Enjoy your pint!

Hi Gabriela, my apologies for intruding on your conversation with David.

With regards to your question about "a belief that motivates you, that helps you overcome problems, that gives you hope", my argument would be that any 'belief' or 'faith' is not necessary in dealing with the travails of life. It's handy, of course. Comforting too, sometimes, but strictly speaking not actually necessary.

Often people talk about rather vague, nebulous 'beliefs' like the 'belief' that their family loves them etc. This, strictly speaking, is not a faith position and as such is not a belief. Rather, it is a rational conclusion drawn from available evidence. I believe that my family love me because they show me that they do and tell me that they do. Of course I could be wrong: it could all be an elaborate ruse designed to lull me into a false sense of security and then run off with all my money/books/internal organs or whatever, but nonetheless it's not an unreasonable conclusion to draw given the available evidence.

I guess that, as human beings, we all make decisions sometimes that are not solely based on evidence, but on trust, on our love for someone else or on a hunch; but this is not what gets us through life. What personally helps me through life is the knowledge that none of us can ever know absolutely everything, including whether or not there is a god, and that therefore the most rational and reasonable course of action to take is to simply act as if there is not, but to treat people how you would want to be treated. It's immensely liberating.

"Believing in yourself is good, and I think you can believe 'fully' - not only with 'a certain amount' : )"

I agree, but only if we have the confidence to fully believe in ourselves. I don't have that. I'm not at the stage where I can fully put my trust in my abilities. I need, to an extent, to have others verify what I do as being 'the right thing'. Lack of confidence, perhaps. However, it's a goal towards which I can strive.

Pint-wise, it was good, thanks. A few cheeky whiskies helped, too!

Edit: Carl - feel free to jump in. This is an open forum.

"I am curious to know if there are any other particular beliefs in your life that really stand out, that drive you forward, that give you confidence, hope, motivation....whatever those may be. What are they (if there are any) and why those? "

The belief that this world is all we will ever have, and the need to appreciate our stint on it while it lasts.

Atheists choose to believe that there is no god. Being unable to scientifically prove this it therefore becomes a matter of faith.
Carl Waring (above) has a correct approach in writing, "a rational conclusion drawn from available evidence". Having been an atheist most of my life I am now aware that when one examines 'available evidence' with an open mind it can be a shock to realise that simply accepting what are supposedly obvious facts without looking at alternatives can keep a person tethered in a similar way that a person may by their own observation and logic determine that the sun moves around the earth.

Carl Waring

Hello Carl,

You're not 'intruding', as David mentioned, this is a free forum, you're very welcome.

"but to treat people how you would want to be treated."

Yes, it is a valuable concept, to lead one's life by these words. However, out of curiousity, what do you do if you personally don't mind .. for example someone swearing at you, and based on the way you want to be treated, you swear at other people too, but they might not want to be treated this way? Or if you don't mind your wife having affairs and based on this you have an affair too with someone else's wife, but that someone else may not want to be treated like that?

I am not saying you have, God forbid : ) just for the argument's sake, and I am not saying either you should replace this immensely liberating way of leading your life with any God, but ...just curious to know how do you judge then what's right and wrong to do to other people? They may simply have a different view to you of how they want to be treated.

Ryan Williams

"The belief that this world is all we will ever have, and the need to appreciate our stint on it while it lasts."

Wow, that's a great belief.

But would you tell that to this guy who may want to kill himself:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1196755/The-astonishing-story-man-born-arms-legs--world-famous-swimmer-surfer-footballer.html

'Live you life mate, you're just a bunch of molecules that nature by random or not random natural selection made you this way without any reason whatsoever, and you existing has no purpose at all, and when you die, nothing will remain of you, appreciate it while it lasts."

?

David

"I don't have that. I'm not at the stage where I can fully put my trust in my abilities. I need, to an extent, to have others verify what I do as being 'the right thing'. Lack of confidence, perhaps."

But you should! You don't need anyone anymore to verify that you do the 'right thing' YOU DO the right thing, David. (I just know :)

Hey, I know that! And I do try to do the right thing. What I meant was that, in some areas of my life, I am not 100% certain that I AM doing the right thing.

"(I just know :)"
How do you know, Gabriela?!

David

If I tried to explain that, I'd be really seen as 'delusional' and I still hope that some people on this forum will see me as a rational being :)

I could try to explain it, but not here.

Mr Clews asserts that "Atheists choose to believe that there is no god. Being unable to scientifically prove this it therefore becomes a matter of faith", which I think is a common fallacy amongst believers. A lack of belief in something does not equate to a belief that something does not exist. On the face of it they may well seem to be so similar as to be the same, but they are not. A good beginners guide to why they are not the same can be found here: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/beliefdisbelief.htm

Gabriela, if I am correct you ask what I would do if I treated somebody in a way that I am happy to be treated, but they were not happy to be treated. This happens to all of us, every day, so I'm a little perplexed as to why you'd need to ask what I'd do but here goes: I would apologise and seek to change my behaviour to fit their desires up to the point where my principles were compromised, upon which I would try to talk to them to find a common solution. The thing is that, as I've already said, this happens to all of us on a daily basis (you might hold a door open for someone who, unknown to you, thinks that it is an archaic and demeaning practice, or you might use a turn of phrase that somebody else finds uncouth) and we deal with it on an almost instinctual level - what would be the alternative: to carry on blithely offending somebody without the least care in the world? Hardly a recipe for a happy and successful social life!

Carl

Sorry for leaving you in a perplexed state of mind : ) Why I need to ask? Well, because what you said in your response is valid for 'little things' where people are not really hurt. So you can apologize after you find out that you offended them.

But take the example with having an affair, I mean, if you are married and find it perfectly moral to have affairs, and based on your moral view, you have an affair with someone else's wife, and that husband finds out and is absolutely destroyed, you going to him and saying 'sorry, I do apologize, I won't do it to you again, now that I know you don't like to be treated this way' .... hm... wouldn't help very much, would it? So, you would need 'something' BEFORE you actually do what someone else may not like, to tell you/guide you. And I was just interested to hear what would that actually be? Because in this case 'treating others the way we would like to be treated' wouldn't really be enough ... and you apologizing after would be laughable.

Ok. Can I track down your email address and ask you to explain it via that method?

Hi Gabriela,

With regards to your hypothetical affair, I would argue that in carrying out the affair without the knowledge that the third party finds it acceptable, I would be breaking the rule to start with. This, obviously and by definition, is a situation which would not arise if I were following the rule and therefore is a moot point.

David

If you click on my name, you'll get my profile and my website and there you'll find the email address.

Gabriela, why the need to categorise? And what sort of an answer are you after? Are you labelling anyone who does not worship some supernatural deity(ies) but is not really bothered an atheist, or strictly the definition "a person who disbelieves in the existence of God (or gods)"?

The latter definition is interesting, because the more dogmatic the person is about their belief, the more they become atheist towards the existence of another God (or other gods) worshipped by other people.

I'll personally 'believe' anything (I truly accept that most people are good and they are not lying), but after time, experience and a critical eye will tell if something is real, or made up, or open for further interrogation. Take crop circles for instance, we had a series of this phenomena in England, and I have even witnessed with my own eyes people taken aback by the real thing whilst out walking in the countryside (usually let in by the farmer charging a pretty penny). I didn't really believe these were created by an alien life force, it just seemed too far fetched for some civilization able to reach our tiny little planet to leave only circles in farmers fields ... but hey, live and let live, there were enough 'believers' to keep the faith alive. We've since had plenty of evidence to prove that a lot of these were actually hoaxes, and no evidence to prove that they were created by an alien civilization.

It's probably fair to 'believe' in whatever you want, as long as you don't take this idea of 'belief' into an idea of 'knowing'. One can say I 'believe' in <supernatural deity>, and I accept that other people also 'believe' in <supernatural deity>, and as humans on this earth, we are equal. It is only wrong, when people say I 'know' <supernatural deity> exists and he/she/it is everything, and everyone else is wrong.

I believe I had a nice dinner tonight with my family, and I'm now going to sit down with a nice glass of red.

Reject dogma.

G. Tozer

I reject dogma, too, but I am still one of those completely crazy, delusional people like Carl Jung who say 'I KNOW God exists' but that's the reason why I am NOT saying that everyone else is wrong.

I am not after any particular answer, I was just curious to know what beliefs drive the lives of those who label themselves (I did not label them) as 'atheist' (according to their own definition: lacking belief in God's existence).

Because in the end, we all 'believe' in something, I wouldn't be able to cross the street if I didn't believe I'd make it to the other side without dying hit by a car.

For people who believe in a God (whatever that God may or not be) all their other beliefs tend to spring from this one source: their belief in God.

And I am just simply curious to hear from different people, in absence of a belief in God, what sort of beliefs drives them, and why those particular beliefs.

So...I'm not after any kind of answer, perhaps just the truth of what one believes and why.

I'm glad you enjoyed your dinner with your family and I hope you enjoyed your glass of red wine, too, by the way, but you only 'believe' you enjoyed your dinner? Don't you KNOW if you enjoyed it or not? : )

Hi Gabriela

The question to 'what do you believe in' could be considered ambiguous.

When you say "what sort of beliefs drives them", I'm not sure it's really relevant to have a 'belief' to drive you. I have a number of things in my life that drive me, and I assume that most other people do too. I'd actually turn that around and say why do you need beliefs to drive you, isn't the reality enough? Why do you need to constantly look for other supernatural existences when the reality is already here? Should you be driving yourself with beliefs, or driving yourself to devoting your time to the people that really matter?

When you say "YOU KNOW" a God exists, that is your perogative. I assume you've defined your God (or gods) by the fact you know. Can you define your God (or gods) further? I don't know a God (or gods) exist, and I don't believe anyone really knows. I accept that I could believe a God (or gods) exists, but I don't need to be in a position where I feel I have to believe in something that may not.

When you say you KNOW, but you are NOT saying that everyone else is wrong, can you accept that you may be wrong? To fully reject dogma, you have to accept that you could be wrong.

God (or gods) may, or may not, exist. God (or gods) may, or may not, exist in various different forms. We all have to accept that.

G. Tozer

Now, why do * you * assume something that's not there? Why do you 'assume' at all?

I haven't asked you to look for other supernatural existences...

You may not be aware of your beliefs (nothing to do with any God now) because you may not have actually thought about it (which is fine as well if you are happy :) but beliefs ARE what run the wheels of human existence, even if they are not so 'visible'. Both, good and bad, is a consequence of some beliefs we hold in our conscious or subconscious mind. You may not name them, you may not be aware of them, but they do exist, you wouldn't be able to function as a human being without believing that you can cross a street, drive a car, learn a language, do a job ... etc.

Not being aware of one's beliefs is not the same as not having them subconsciously.

What 'reality' are you talking about? 10 people stuck in a traffic jam may experience totally different 'realities' you know... the traffic jam may be the same, but what they experience vis-a-vis this traffic jam can be very different. One may relax take a book and read, the other one may get furious and start swearing, someone else may put the music on and start dreaming ... the experienced reality would be different. One of them may start laughing looking at how the others get stressed and frustrated. Would he be delusional? Would his experienced reality be 'unreal' ?

Very deep down it would actually be their 'beliefs' that would make them experience the same thing differently.

Oh...I CAN define God up to the point where it blows your mind away ... and where He (I just like the 'He' more : ) doesn't want to let Himself defined anymore .... but that wasn't the point here.

I didn't say I 'fully' reject dogma, I said 'I reject dogma' :)

Oh...I am never wrong even when I am wrong lol

I said 'I am not saying that * everyone else * is wrong', and NOT that 'some' may not be wrong :)

Indeed He does exist ...

:)

PS: But you still have not answered if you only believed you enjoyed your dinner or if you knew you enjoyed your dinner : )

Enjoy your day!

Gabriela,

In answer to your question, I know I enjoyed my dinner because it tasted nice and relieved me of my hunger. The fact that I added extra hot piri-piri as a condiment made the dish interesting.

I believe I can drive a car, but others may disagree (I currently have 3 SP30s). If you look at the Oxford dictionary definition of 'believe' this is probably a true statement in some sense, but not in others ... like I said, it's ambiguous.

It sounds like you are basing these 'beliefs' as the reason for basic human behaviour. We hold lots of thoughts in our conscious and sub-conscious, along with our instincts, that affect how we conduct our lives.

I didn't say I assume someting that's not there. The only assumption I made was that you had defined your God (or gods), and it appears you have ... it(s)'s now a 'He'. Can you elaborate further in the definition?

You will not blow my mind away defining your interpretation of a God (or gods), although you are welcome to try. I have had enough mind blowing experiences that will blow away any inetrpratations of supernatural deities, but that's only my opinion.

Face it, both you or I could both be wrong. The time you do not accept that you could be wrong, is the time we all should go home.

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