43 of 52 people found the following review helpful
Fine studies of Israel's war on the Palestinians,
This review is from: Gaza in Crisis: Reflections on Israel's War Against the Palestinians (Hardcover)
This is a brilliant collection of essays and interviews by Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappé, the well-known Israeli historian. Edited by Frank Barat, it comprises eight pieces: The fate of Palestine: an interview with Noam Chomsky; two essays by Ilan Pappé: Clusters of history: US involvement in the Palestine question, and State of denial: the Nakbah in Israeli history and today; `Exterminate all the brutes': Gaza 2009, by Chomsky; Blueprint for a one-state movement: a troubled history, by Pappé; The ghettoisation of Palestine: a dialogue with the two authors; The killing fields of Gaza 2004-2009, by Pappé; and A Middle East peace that could happen (but won't), by Chomsky.
In June 2008, Israel and Hamas signed a ceasefire agreement, which Israel broke when it sent forces into Gaza on 4 November, and again when it launched its full-scale invasion on 27 December. Israeli forces used US-made white phosphorus shells against civilians, a war crime. In January 2009, the President of the UN General Assembly called Israel's attack on Gaza genocide. Israel still imposes its vicious blockade of Gaza: an ongoing war crime.
Israel could defend itself better by ending its criminal actions in occupied territories and accepting the two-state solution urged by the vast majority of the world (and vetoed at the UN by the USA ever since 1976). The Arab League, Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, the Palestinian National Council all back the two-state solution (i.e., recognising Israel's right to exist). Only the USA, Israel and a few Pacific island US dependencies oppose it.
In December 2008, the US state opposed UN resolutions calling for `the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination' (it was passed by 173 votes to 5) and for the `universal freedom of travel and vital importance of family reunification' (probably because Israel bans entry to Palestinians from occupied territories who wish to join their Israeli spouses). The USA also voted against regulating the arms trade, against the right to development, and against the right to food. The USA alone opposed this last resolution, an appalling vote in view of the huge global food crisis.
The authors show how the US state sabotages diplomacy and opposes democracy and how the EU always backs the USA.
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Showing 1-10 of 25 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 21 Dec 2010 14:34:18 GMT
Ilan Pappé? Is that the same Ilan Pappé who openly declared himself to use history as a means for his propaganda? I think it was Israeli historian Benny Morris, even reviled by the Zionist scholars, who criticised Pappé for hyperbole and a total disregard for facts.
True to form we see this in the claim that Israel broke the ceasefire of June 2008. Does this book say anything about the 12,000 rockets fired by Hamas, not on Israeli military targets, but on civilians, schools and nurseries? Does it mention anything about Hamas flattening the town of Sderot over a period of 8 years before Operation Cast Lead in 2009?
In anticipation of your reply: I didn't think so.
And what about the tired old rhetoric of Noam Chomsky, fervent supporter of Nazi-saluting Iranian proxy militia Hezbollah? Oh enough. I know what to expect from this tripe of a book.
In reply to an earlier post on 21 Dec 2010 14:43:55 GMT
Dear Adama, If you don't like Pappe and Chomsky, try Francis Boyle, Baruch Kimmerling, John Quigley, Avi Shlaim or Jimmy Carter as antidotes to your unfortunate Zionist opinions.
In reply to an earlier post on 22 Dec 2010 14:53:21 GMT
Dear William, thank you for your recommendations. I have read most of the other authors on your list, which provoked a range of responses from laughter all the way to boredom.
I must admit to being quite old fashioned in my reading tastes, preferring history books with facts (call it 'unfortunate Zionist opinions', call it what you will), like the facts I made in my previous comment, which I notice you're not able to refute (as a result of reading Pappé and Chomsky, no doubt).
But just to make doubly sure, in case you missed it first time. Does this book say anything about the 12,000 rockets fired by Hamas, not on Israeli military targets, but on civilians, schools and nurseries? Does it mention anything about Hamas flattening the town of Sderot over a period of 8 years before Operation Cast Lead in 2009?
Awaiting your reply...
In reply to an earlier post on 23 Dec 2010 12:23:53 GMT
How many were killed by the '12,000 rockets'?
How many were killed when Israel attacked Gaza?
Posted on 26 Dec 2010 17:37:41 GMT
Ilan Pappé was Professor of History at Haifa University for 23 years and is now Professor of History at Exeter University. It is a smear on the reputation of one of Israel’s finest universities to imply that they would have as a professor someone who admitted that they used history as a means for his propaganda.
Adama doesn’t even quote Pappé, just casually, carelessly presumes to sum up what he thinks Pappé wrote. Adama writes that Pappe ‘openly declared himself to use history as a means for his propaganda’.
In fact, Pappé said in a 1999 interview, “"I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings," he said. Influences, not determines. And not a word about propaganda.
Between 2005 and 2007, Palestinian groups in Gaza fired about 2,700 locally-made Qassam rockets into Israel, killing four Israeli civilians and injuring 75 others. During the same period, Israel fired more than 14,600 155mm artillery shells into the Gaza Strip, killing 59 Palestinians and injuring 270.
The 2008 Israel–Hamas ceasefire started on 19 June 2008 and lasted until 19 December 2008. The top Hamas leaders in Damascus had agreed to a cease-fire, provided Israel would not attack Gaza and would permit normal humanitarian supplies to be delivered to Palestinian citizens.
According to The New York Times, neither side fully respected the terms of the cease-fire. The Israeli blockade of Gaza was loosened but not completely opened. From 4 November to 8 December, about 700 truck loads of goods went into Gaza, which is about the amount of material that would have gone through in a single day without a blockade.
The New York Times said, “Hamas imposed its will and even imprisoned some of those who were firing rockets. Israeli and United Nations figures show that while more than 300 rockets were fired into Israel in May, 10 to 20 were fired in July, depending on who was counting and whether mortar rounds were included. In August, 10 to 30 were fired, and in September, 5 to 10.” (19 Dec 2008). Shortly after the start of the truce, the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center commented that ‘rogue terrorist organizations’ opposed to Hamas continued to carry out attacks. Nevertheless, rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between 18 June and 4 November when compared to the four and a half months preceding the ceasefire: over 1,894 rockets were fired into Israel from 1 February to 18 June and just 37 were fired between 18 June and the beginning of November.
According to data from B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organization, at least nineteen Palestinians in the Strip died from Israeli fire during the ceasefire. The group also stated that no Israeli civilian or Israeli security force personnel were killed by Palestinian attacks from the Strip in the same period.
On 4 November 2008, the Israeli military invaded the Gaza Strip, entering at least 250 meters inside Palestinian Territory and killing six members of Hamas.
The conditions posed by a Hamas delegation in Cairo on 14 December were that the parties return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement. Hamas would undertake to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would agree to open up the border crossings, not to reduce commercial traffic thereafter, and not to launch attacks in Gaza. Hamas stated that the Israelis had not respected the terms of the cease-fire, which Hamas defined as the lifting of the blockade and a complete ban of military incursions into Gaza.
At an Israeli Cabinet meeting on 21 December, Yuval Diskin, head of Israel's internal security agency, said he thought Hamas was "interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms... It wants us to lift the siege [of Gaza], stop attacks, and extend the truce to include [the West Bank]."
Israel opened the attack with a surprise air strike against the Gaza Strip on December 27, 2008. The conflict resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths. Gaza lost nearly $2 billion in assets, including 4,000 homes destroyed. The IDF destroyed 600–700 factories, small industries, workshops and business enterprises throughout the Gaza Strip, 24 mosques, 31 security compounds, and 10 water or sewage lines. The World Health Organization said that 34 health facilities (8 hospitals and 26 primary health care clinics) were damaged over the course of the offensive.
In reply to an earlier post on 29 Dec 2010 16:21:28 GMT
Last edited by the author on 30 Dec 2010 07:16:02 GMT
You seem not to want to acknowledge a difference between Jewish kindergarten children and Islamic terrorists...
You asked me "How many were killed when Israel attacked Gaza?"
In an interview for London Arabic daily 'Al Hayat' Nov 1st 2010, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad stated that:
"They say the people suffered from this war, but is Hamas not part of the people? [?!] On the first day of the war Israel targeted police stations and 250 martyrs were killed, from Hamas"
"In addition to them, between 200 and 300 fighters from the Al-Qassam Brigades (Hamas armed wing) and another 150 security forces were martyred."
Incidentally, this admission by Hamad also contradicts the conclusions of the Goldstone Report; you know Judge Goldstone? The anti-Apartheid activist judge, who convicted black people to hang in Apartheid S.Africa.
But anyway, Hamad's testimony of 709 is very close to Israel's total figure for the conflict. So this totally undermines the Goldstone Report claims, as well as the claims you make in your last comment (although I'm not sure where they're from since you don't say).
War crimes and crimes in general are not judged by their death rate. They are judged based on the intent of the perpetrator. Nor is moral legitimacy made up based on a death toll either.
I know such things in life are confusing for you, but this is understandable since explanations cannot be found in any of Marx's writings.
In reply to an earlier post on 29 Dec 2010 16:31:27 GMT
Last edited by the author on 30 Dec 2010 07:40:14 GMT
There is enough of what Pappé has said of his writings online, but more importantly of Benny Morris's criticism of Pappé -which I noticed you ignored.
I don't think we need to repeat and rephrase these arguments here again and again going around in circles; or is this what is meant by Marxist revolutionary?
Pappé left Haifa University in 2007 after the exposure of his research errors undercut his master's thesis and his endorsement of the British boycott of Israeli universities prompted the president of the university to call for his resignation. (Haaretz Israeli newspaper April 26 2005)
Pappé's reputation is in tatters, at least among historians.
What has the New York Times got to do with anything? Could it be this book is so biased, that you're resorting to irrelevant material and arguments to make some sort of case here?
Your dismissal of offences committed against Israelis (hiding the truth by reducing this conflict to numbers; death tolls) and visceral hatred and warmongering (whether intentional or not) because Hamas terrorists were killed, whilst hiding among the civilian population (the material you cite also ignores this), is just typical of those having read the likes of Chomsky and Pappé.
Peace will never be achieved if people like Chomsky and Pappé keep firing up terror organisations with international support from their readers (voters) in order that they continue their illegitimate terror campaign against Jews, being allowed to get away with breaking international law, as well as the Geneva Conventions and just about every other law related to conflict. But maybe achieving peace isn't the aim of this book and its aims are more aligned with those of Hamas?
But enough of this, I'll ask again:
Does this book say anything about the 12,000 rockets fired by Hamas, not on Israeli military targets, but on civilians, schools and nurseries? Does it mention anything about Hamas flattening the town of Sderot over a period of 8 years before Operation Cast Lead in 2009 or are these authors up to their usual historical revisionist propaganda?
In reply to an earlier post on 30 Dec 2010 09:58:32 GMT
So Adama, you don't challenge the facts that Israel killed far more people than Hamas did in the period before the ceasefire and also in the attack on Gaza.
The Israeli Defence Force estimated that the attack on Gaza resulted in 1,166 Palestinian deaths. (IDF releases Cast Lead casualty, The Jerusalem Post, March 26, 2009). The IDF also admitted that 295 civilians were killed.
Which shows that Adama is being economical with the truth when he wrote that "Hamad's testimony of 709 is very close to Israel's total figure for the conflict."
Israel's total figure was 1,166, not 709.
Adama has, for some reason, omitted to include the number of civilians killed by the Israeli attack.
In reply to an earlier post on 30 Dec 2010 10:03:31 GMT
Ilan Pappe is now Professor of History at Exeter University. It is a smear on the reputation of a fine British university to imply that they would have as a professor someone who admitted that they used history as a means for his propaganda.
Morris' ad hominem attacks on Pappe do nothing for Morris' reputation.
Adama amusingly accuses me of 'hiding the truth by reducing this conflict to numbers; death tolls)'.
Adama merely 'hides the truth' by lying about the numbers that the Israeli attack killed.
Which reduces Adama's credibility to tatters.
In reply to an earlier post on 30 Dec 2010 13:08:43 GMT
Last edited by the author on 30 Dec 2010 13:15:16 GMT
Does THIS BOOK say anything about the 12,000 rockets fired by Hamas, not on Israeli military targets, but on civilians, schools and nurseries? Does it mention anything about Hamas flattening the town of Sderot over a period of 8 years before Operation Cast Lead in 2009 or are these authors up to their usual historical revisionist propaganda?