The Official Amazon Football Thread - Second Leg

What's his arm doing up there in the first place though Si? It was a handball.

"He can make a run that takes two or three defenders out of the play, and knock it down to Suarez or Borini to finish it off. Suarez and Borini are both small, technical strikers and at times you do need something different if your current approach isn't getting you anywhere. And you yourself have said in the past that a big lanky striker up front doesn't automatically mean long ball, hell, even West Ham have shown it. Carroll's a lot better with his feet than he's given credit for, and introducing him, coupled with a more direct approach, COULD have changed the game in Liverpool's favour"

You win the interwebz!

I've not really followed Carroll too closely but I think he's get's labelled pretty unfairly.

When I was at Upton Park for his debut very few of his headers were from 'long balls' hoofed straight into the box by the keeper or defenders. Most of them were from the full backs or wingers who had already come up to or gone past the half way line and were diagonal balls played pretty accurately when Carrol was in space or were crosses from out on the wing and I was less impressed by Carroll's headed attempts on goal than I was by his ability to nod the ball down to the feet of other players in more dangerous positions which was really making the difference.

I don't think that's long ball play at all and if he was doing that to the feet of someone like Suarez you'd see the Liverpool attacking threat look a lot more dangerous.

I think at Spurs we've seen that having a combination of both the small skillful strikers like Defoe and VDV as well as the big bustling CF who can hold up play and get the nod on's like Adebayor is needed and the worry for Liverpool has got to be that they may become a bit one dimensional because of Rodgers refusal to adapt or deviate from how he things football should be played.

"Reading should have had one against Spurs yesterday at 0-0. Walker clearly handballed in the box."

Sorry, i know you think i'm just saying it as a fan but the ref got it right. At first my reaction was 'Wht the hell you jumping like that for' then when you se the replay the arm rotates when the forearm of the reading player goes agains Walkers back. The ref saw he was pushed and handballed it due to the previous foul, it was a good call by the ref. If that was a hand ball then so was the one at the other end when Sig's shot was saved off the line. The ball hit off the players hand before geting stopped on the line.

I'm also hopeful that Evra will play on Wednesday an do his hamstring, ruling him out of the Liverpool match on the weekend so we can forget about #handshakegate for another few months.

I know what you mean Andy, and personally I think Suarez 'could' be prolific enough, I don't know if he will. However it's our lack of goals from elsewhere at the minute that's a bigger concern, but at the minute I put it down to the system and we're no fluid enough or anywhere near used to the patterns of play yet, which is not a surprise after 4 League games it will take a number of months to begin to see a greatly improved level of performance and goal return, i'm sure we'll have a number of games where things workout, but on a consistent basis, it would be silly of anyone to expect it to be happening right now.

Dempsey has played many games as the CF and because we play with a roaming CF he could have worked there, although I think he was due to play in CM with SG or as an alternative to provide goals from the middle, plus i'm sure he could have played wide in a 3 up front, but it wasn't to be. Not the end of the world. The Carroll situation was unfortunate it was a gamble that didn't pay off, although it may at the end of the season.

Borini has the potential to be a very good goalscorer but at this time not yet, is that him or the system?

BR doesn't need to be 'untouchable', why would they bring someone in with the caveat of this will take time to implement, we're thinking of the future, there will be struggles to begin with but with the payoff being worth it eventually, only then to judge it after 4-10 games? It's not going to happen.

On a side note, as good as RVP is and was last season, he averaged 9 goals per season before last season, hardly a massive amount. Strangely enough that's the same amount Borini got for Roma last season ;)

I've had a real dislike for Suarez since he bragged about his handball at the world cup. The handball itself I can live with as I think most players would do it, but I like to think they'd be a bit more humble and apologetic after the match.

"most teams have at least one player that everyone loves to hate and if they're seen to do wrong it's always worse than if it was someone else."

Unfortunatly i have this with Suarez, i can't stand the player. I absolutly hate it when he does something good, like a winding rund to score or the shot from near the half way line and score. But with me anyway, first impressions count and i have taken a real dislikeing to him. Then the whole rasist thing, where Kenny and team, not only backed him but tried to protect him. It was almost like them saying that that word was ok to say.

I agree that refs need to toughen up on protecting the players from roughing up. It does happen and Bale was out for a very long time due to it. Although i think mind games and scare tactics are part of the stratagy, when a player is getting targeted by little niks and kicks from players it should be stopped. some players can get carrer ending injuries from a challenge at pace.

Right, here we go. Further to the diving scenario. It's obviously a grey area most of the time. Welbeck's however was blatant and he should have been booked, although Al Habsi brought it on himself for coming out like that. Suarez is the fuzzier one. There was definite contact, but it does look as though he's fishing for it. It's down to the ref to decide if he thinks the player is deliberately trying to deceive him or not, and in this case that's what's happened and I think either decision would have been correct.

Chelsea definitely should have had at least one penalty against QPR and Reading should have had one against Spurs yesterday at 0-0. Walker clearly handballed in the box.

On to Carroll and Liverpool's strikers in general. Bri, I don't see why you get so worked up when people suggest you could do with a clinical goalscorer. Sure, playing a nice quick passing game is all very well and good, but surely another sign of a good team is adaptability? It's not a cure all but Carroll would have added something different. He can make a run that takes two or three defenders out of the play, and knock it down to Suarez or Borini to finish it off. Suarez and Borini are both small, technical strikers and at times you do need something different if your current approach isn't getting you anywhere. And you yourself have said in the past that a big lanky striker up front doesn't automatically mean long ball, hell, even West Ham have shown it. Carroll's a lot better with his feet than he's given credit for, and introducing him, coupled with a more direct approach, COULD have changed the game in Liverpool's favour. That's all that's been said.

"Liverpool look toothless big time, just think putting on Andy Carrol in last 10 minutes might have won them that game"

Aye, and the worrying thing is I think Rodgers has put himself in an 'untouchable' position because the board let Carroll go without getting a replacement in so it's not his fault.

The thing is, they were going to let Carroll go and get Dempsey in... Last time I looked Dempsey was not an out and out CF striker so even if they had got him I don't think he would have offered them much more than Borini does.

They need an out and out goal getter and neither Borini or Dempsey are that. Suarez is about as close as they come to that and although he's a great player I certainly wouldn't put him in the same goal scoring bracket as RVP, Tevez, Aguerro, Torres etc that you really need.

I guess that's kind of my point Si, reputations should count for nothing, every incident should be judged on merit there and then without prejudice. The amount of times i've seen Suarez get kicked from pillar to post while bouncing around struggling to stay on his feet to get the ball is ridiculous (English player get praised when they do it) I don't know where his reputation comes from. But mud sticks and most of it is down to the fact that people just don't like Suarez, most teams have at least one player that everyone loves to hate and if they're seen to do wrong it's always worse than if it was someone else.

The other side of all this is as you mention Si, is players being targeted, which I understand and don't really have a problem with (you're basically acknowledging that you aren't as good as that player) but the referee then has a duty of care to protect that player by issuing yellow cards for rough treatment, when this isn't happening he is not doing the first part of his job. This has been happening throughout time. Teams used to have a number of players 'assigned' to that kind of task, when one picked up a yellow card another would make the next tackle.

Re: Diving, I think Welbeck and Young have both been heavily criticised for their dives in the last few months, but I do admit it's funny to see comments like "shame to see that from an Englishman."

Gotta nip out but I'll do a bigger post later on.

I think its more a case of players getting a reputation of diving.

For an English example think of Andy Johnson. he went/goes down very easily when in the box, and that was mainly in the championship, so when he got to the EPL the refs wouldn't give him anything.

Bale does go down easily but not just in the box, as a fast paced winger he's picked on like Ronaldo was and lots of others. A hard tackle here and there helps keep them at bay, so when refs see at speed there is more chance of a pen being awarded. I'm using Bale as an example i'll admit there have been Pen appeals that were minimal at best from Bale in the past, so i'm not defending every pen awarded as legit. BUt its the players reputation that plays a big part in it.

I hope i've explained my point, players that get fauled outside the box are more likely to get penalty appeals on the odd occation in the box than a forwards couple of fouls in the area unless blatently obvious.

"BTW for me his dive was worse than Welbecks, could see why welbveck did it, he just did it wrong, Managers tell them to go down with contact, so he looked for Contact and missed LOL."

What? Are you being serious? Suarez was clearly caught, plain as day on the replays. Suarez looked for contact and got it!! How is that worse than a dive without it?

Yes Andy Carroll is the answer to our problems, stick him on in the last 10 mins and kick the ball in the box.

Why do people think that way? While I like Carroll and would have liked him to be there and fit in, he doesn't. It would mean changing the way we play! If you think that is the best way to score a goal then why wouldn't you play that way from the 1st minute?

There is no way LFC were 'woeful' or 'awful', we're lacking a little in the final 3rd, but our approach play is good, our defening needs to improve at times but is generally OK, but that comes from the rest of the team, they're still not quite defending properly as a unit infront of the defence when we lose possession, not all the time but occasionally throughout the game and low and behold we usually get punished for it. We just need to be more patient with our build up, we're trying to play the final ball too soon, forcing it almost, especially if we've conceded. Wait until we've scored the first goal, you will see a different LFC, we're still trying to build confidence too, off the back of last season and the start of this it's not at it's highest which in turn causes the impatience after the setback of conceding, when we get the first goal that will be different.

These are teething problems of that I have no doubt, it's natural. Our first 6 games were always going to be tough, but suddenly people are surprised by it, that strikes me as odd. We'll see where we are in October and how our form has improved since these first 6 games and go from there. I'll say it again, we will finish in the top 6. :) It's there for all to mock and laugh at, but the proof will be in the pudding.

I have absolutely no doubt that they will step up to the plate against City. What i do have a problem with is players who are not playing well continuously given chances even though there are players just as deserving sitting on the bench. That's what should happen with Di Maria. Bench him and let him train harder and get back to his best.

Suarez makes it lok worse I think with his "The world is against me, honest Guv" attitude when he gets caught out.

BTW for me his dive was worse than Welbecks, could see why welbveck did it, he just did it wrong, Managers tell them to go down with contact, so he looked for Contact and missed LOL.

Surarez I honestly dont know what he waas doing with that dive, took his goal well though LOL

Getting fed up with Leicester playing well for a half and losing when we should have at least got a draw. When it all clicks I think we'll give a few teams a shellacking.

Di Maria is a good player, he was great back end of last season after his injury, but so far Madrid have been awful, bet they perform against City though?

The SAFC fans I waas speaking to were raving about his performance on Saturday, while I thought he did do quite well to start with, Sterling made him look pretty average after a while and was taken off during the 2nd half, probably due to tiredness as he seemed to struggle more and more as the 2nd half went on.

"Liverpool were woeful... They may have been getting plenty of shots but most of them were off target and Borini doesn't look like he's going to fire the 20+ a season that they need."

Thats what I was sayibng and no one seemed to repsond, I think they outplayed sunderland, but they were truly awful.

Liverpool look toothless big time, just think putting on Andy Carrol in last 10 minutes might have won them that game?

Morning all,

I agree Ryan, we're still rushing things in the final third a little. Which isn't that surprising when you realise that we've been a more direct, counter-attacking passing side in recent years so it'll take a little bit of time for certain players to adjust. Generally we're playing quite well controlling games and creating chances but at the minute that is our biggest fault/problem. We just have to suffer the flaws for the short-term.

I was at the match on Saturday and in the corner where Suarez was booked for diving, at first I thought Pen (as you do), but once he was booked I was disappointed, but when I got home I was more disappointed as I watched the match again and saw that he did get clipped, there was no doubt that he played for the foul, but as I've said before I don't mind that. If someone is going to put a tackle in and you've skipped past them, allowing them to kick you for me is clever play, outright dives have no place, but teasing a poor tackle from a defender is a different matter.

Then I seen Welbeck's dive and was even more disappointed but not surprised. It highlights the discrepancy in a lot of peoples attitudes towards foreign players, Suarez is the 'cheating' foreigner, and Welbeck is the 'honest' Englishman. Bale, Gerrard, Rooney just to name 3 have been guilty of diving in the past and they're all British but it's the foreigners who dive and are sometimes punished even when they don't because of this bias. Although I believe Bale was booked more times than any other player last season for diving and openly admitted that he did it many times successfully to get players sent off, "you just have to be a bit clever about it" he was quoted as saying.

It would be grossly unfair to bench friedel right now, the man has done nothing wrong all season so far.

Grrr

Madrid's in some deep trouble at the moment. No one in the team is really performing at the level they should. Ronaldo's unsettled everyone with his stupid comments. Initially, I thought it might be something else but now I feel more and more it is about money because otherwise, he has no reason to stay quiet and not disclose it.

Di Maria seems like a player who should be playing in the 2nd division and I don't know why he keeps getting chances. Callejon's the only youth player from the academy and he's absolute rubbish but the former statement earns him his chances. Ozil is surprisingly below par and I won't be too harsh on him because he seems like a model professional. ONe big shocker is Benzema's form. I mean he's playing well but he's not scoring at all !

I do fancy them against Man City but I do not know what is going on there. And Mourinho is being too stubborn now with his tactics. Kaka needs to get back as well. Not even a single minute in 6 official games? Give us fans a break!

/ Rant about which no one cares over

Exactly, and in terms of the team we started with on Saturday, that still only counts for Scholes, Giggs, Welbeck and Rafael. Powell will mostly play in the reserves this season and is definitely one for the future rather than the answer to our current midfield problem but we can't say we developed him.