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In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 12:18:20 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Dec 2012 12:19:12 GMT
Ness says:
There is no doubt in my mind Valve have been working on HL3 for a long time but were waiting for the tech to catch up, could finally be the game to take the best visuals ever award away from Crysis.

Hopefully we finally see it at E3 in June !.

On another note its nice to have a debate on here without it turning into heated arguments and people mass voting each other down / putting each other on ignore :D.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 12:15:27 GMT
Bunga says:
"including Half Life 3 at launch (Valve have been waiting on new console hardware imo)."

It would be nice to see the ageing Source engine give way to something new (probably imaginitively named Source 2!). They've done wonders with that engine with pretty constant and marked improvements with each title they release but - give me HL3 with new shiny's PLZ.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 12:01:36 GMT
Wodawick says:
On point A, most of those games are mainly casual games with no depth & less lifespan, In my view it's a completely different market, angry birds & it's ilk should not be classed in the same category as proper mainstream games at least not by any self respecting gamer.

Point B, Consoles do benefit from the uniformity of the respective systems meaning a better degree of optimization can be attained then on PC but just because developers can optimize to a higher degree does not necessarily mean they do especially at the beginning of a consoles lifetime plenty of games on the consoles are now released in very poor states & fixed later in patches.

On point C, you are over playing the piracy card here IMO, the main reason companies are pulling out of producing for PC is that console games make more money plain & simple, Piracy is banded about as an excuse far to often by lazy dev's & to be honest those lazy dev's probably only did poor ports of console games anyway.

Another thing you don't take into account that means my PC will never be an expensive paperweight as you put it, is modding which over the years has kept PC gaming alive & fresh, almost any game that comes out on PC can & has been modded by it's community extending the lifespan of said games exponentially even in some case propelling old games to the top of games charts just look at what DayZ has done for sales of Arm 2

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 11:32:14 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Dec 2012 11:34:33 GMT
Ness says:
"Except that Nintendo's console, no doubt cheaper to develop for, won't shift 3rd party games except for launch titles or major JRPGs."

Lol aye some of the WiiU third party launch game sales figures are embarrassing tbh but what do you expect when you release the likes of Batman AC a year late and ME3 / NG3 ect 6 months late...

The likes of Bayonetta 2 will sell though and perhaps even get a few of the PS / Xbox guys to buy one for a few of the third party games Nintendo will secure as exclusives.

Third party developers will want to stick with PS360 / WiiU for as long as they can because development costs will be at least 50% increased for the 'real next gen' consoles.

"I'm sort of dreading the next gen. At the moment I have a kick ass, high end rig that absolutely crunches any game you throw at it (even Far Cry 3 on ultra) but it's not simply the graphical leap that may be incoming, it's the console exclusives that will entice me."

The console exclusive games are the reason i have never went PC only in the longterm, if it was a case of third party games only i would be a PC exclusive gamer in a heartbeat.

At the end of the day you can spend all the money in the world on a gaming PC but you still won't have access to the newest versions of Uncharted, God of War, LBP, Gran Turismo, Halo, Gears of War, Fable, Forza, Zelda, Smash Bros, Metroid, Mario Kart ect, ect without also buying the latest consoles, works the other way aswell though with the likes of Rome, Diablo, Starcraft, Football Manager, MMO's ect but i do think the vast majority of PC games will be released for next gen consoles because of rising development costs, including Half Life 3 at launch (Valve have been waiting on new console hardware imo).

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 11:15:05 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Dec 2012 11:15:43 GMT
Except that Nintendo's console, no doubt cheaper to develop for, won't shift 3rd party games except for launch titles or major JRPGs.

I'm sort of dreading the next gen. At the moment I have a kick ass, high end rig that absolutely crunches any game you throw at it (even Far Cry 3 on ultra) but it's not simply the graphical leap that may be incoming, it's the console exclusives that will entice me. Although when it comes down to it, the only console games I REALLY would have missed out on this gen would have been the Uncharted series and Red Dead Redemption. Everything else I could have definitely lived without.

*edit

JOURNEY

Damn, that was it. Journey. What an incredible piece of art.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 11:14:08 GMT
Ness says:
I have completed Crysis on both PC and PS3 and to be fair it looked horrid on PS3 but the fact they got it running at 30 fps or at all on consoles is testament to how much optimisation goes on in console development. It makes several 100% difference.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 11:12:39 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Dec 2012 11:13:44 GMT
Bunga says:
@ Mozza - yeah, I think that probably is the case. I used to collect and play when I was younger (albeit it was Warhammer 40K, not Fantasy) but I've found the Dawn of War games pretty meh really.

I'm excited at the prospect of the Total War fellas getting a bash at the fantasy franchise. One of my favourite games ever was Dark Omen. For me, that was and still is the best game adaptation of the tabletop game. The thought of the controls of Total War, pausing of battles, tactical placement of units at the start of battle etc. but on a new graphics engine, makes me really excited.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 11:12:19 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Dec 2012 11:15:38 GMT
Ness says:
Although it was the MP Alpha and it did look nice, i wasn't as blown away with Crysis 3 as i thought i would be tbh, wasn't much nicer looking than Crysis 2 PC imo.

As i said we are reaching 'diminishing returns', games can only continue to improve over even the original Crysis by a small percentage, it's still the best looking, most technically astounding game ever made imo and it's almost 6 years old !.

The Rome 2 Alpha video is the most impressive thing i have seen in gaming recently and it had nothing to do with the graphics.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 11:07:19 GMT
Ness says:
"However, I wouldn't expect PS4 and 720 to have games that look on par with or better than PC games for a while. Look at the launch titles for 360 and PS3. As an example, both Perfect Dark Zero and Resistance Fall of Man looked and played like high res PS2 titles. Give it a couple of years and things will catch up but by then PC's will have improved two fold. I reckon I'll have to upgrade my video card in maybe 2-4 years, and perhaps add another 4gb of ram."

I agree - to an extent ;).

Sony and MS are going to have a very hard time moving £450 consoles in this economy imo, this will lead to the first wave of AAAA exclusive games, games which cost around $200 million, which provide unreal visuals to make people take the plunge.

ALL games are approaching 'diminishing returns' now, meaning no matter how powerful the hardware is, the less improvement is shown on screen. There is also the factor of increasing development costs, Sony and MS can afford to take loses on 'AAAA' games as long as they shift hardware but 90% of third parties cannot, the vast majority of third party developers will have to stay around the PS360 level of graphical benchmark or simply go out of business, one of the reasons i think Nintendo have played a blinder releasing a 'half step' gen console.

"I'm not too fussed though. PC is pretty much constrained to the same lifecycle in terms of graphical improvement, but there are also boundary pushers. About this time next year we have Total War: Rome 2 coming out which, I guarantee, will blow ANYTHING away in the graphics and gameplay departments."

Agree 100%, Rome 2 looks unreal and is well worth the £1000 just to experience, only on PC :D.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 11:05:35 GMT
I heard mixed reports about the Warhammer strategy games a few years back. I think they were much more enjoyable if you played tabletop or enjoyed the lore, but didn't stand up on their own so well.

Will be interested to see what they'll do with the license.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 11:03:48 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Dec 2012 11:04:31 GMT
Hackerdude says:
I'd like to add I will be getting then new Xbox and hope it's as good as everyone hopes as most of my friends game on consoles and thats what theyre there for, fun with mates.

I don't disagree that what the consoles do. I think its nothing more than remarkable how they even get the current crop of games running on them. A good statement for this is Crysis. Remember the whole 'Can it run Crysis' saga? Then a few years later they manage to run it on Xbox, yes it looked not as good, but the whole point is it did hence the pi55 take cheevo saying 'can it run Crysis'.

I do prefer my Pc though and stand with my point saying there leaps ahead of consoles but I do agree consoles are good at what they do. The next gen is a good thing for all, console gaming and PC gaming alike.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 11:03:25 GMT
Bunga says:
I read on Kotaku yesterday that the folks behind Total War have got the Warhammer Fantasy license. YES.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 11:01:24 GMT
I promise you this now, Rome 2 will look far more impressive.

I'm literally ecstatic. Total War is probably my favourite series ever, and Rome is my favourite game (must have clocked at least 5-600 hours and have been playing it since the age of 13). I'm inevitably going to be a bit disappointed because Rome is on this pedestal, but I'd be surprised if it gets anything less than 90% in reviews.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 10:58:55 GMT
"we have Total War: Rome 2 coming out which, I guarantee, will blow ANYTHING away in the graphics and gameplay departments"

And Crysis 3, thats supposed to be a system melter!

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 10:58:27 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Dec 2012 10:59:09 GMT
Ness says:
They will both take around a £100 loss per console sold imo, well because they can (Unlike Nintendo), i think both will launch in this country for £450 RRP in November 2013.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 10:56:11 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Dec 2012 11:08:47 GMT
Ness says:
Good points.

I would add Phones / Tablets 'fake' a lot of their graphical effects on the better looking games, i think the Ipad 3 has around 32 GFLOPs of combined computational power.

PS3's Cell has around 200 GFLOPs of power for instance and another 240 GFLOPs for it's 'RSX' GPU.

Phones / Tablets have a LONG way to go to before even matching PS360 without cheating ;).

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 10:54:38 GMT
Nessy is right - to an extent.

Obviously consoles don't have many processes running, just the game. This means lower powered hardware can do some incredible things.

However, I wouldn't expect PS4 and 720 to have games that look on par with or better than PC games for a while. Look at the launch titles for 360 and PS3. As an example, both Perfect Dark Zero and Resistance Fall of Man looked and played like high res PS2 titles. Give it a couple of years and things will catch up but by then PC's will have improved two fold. I reckon I'll have to upgrade my video card in maybe 2-4 years, and perhaps add another 4gb of ram.

I'm not too fussed though. PC is pretty much constrained to the same lifecycle in terms of graphical improvement, but there are also boundary pushers. About this time next year we have Total War: Rome 2 coming out which, I guarantee, will blow ANYTHING away in the graphics and gameplay departments.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 10:52:41 GMT
Wow thats gonna be expensive!

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 10:47:23 GMT
Ness says:
"I'd just like to add. No they wont. Rumours are that the PS4 will be running a downclocked HD7770, a vastly inferior graphics card to even a GTX660 let alone 680! My brother PC has a 7770 and its not downcloked like the PS4 will be and that only marginly beats my GTX550Ti on a few games, even they are fast superior in visuals to any ps3/360 game!"

You can't compare PC hardware to console hardware, it's not an apples and apples conundrum. As i said before the massive optimisations that go into console game development because the developers know specifically what they are coding for goes a long way to making up spec differences, esp in the first few years of a consoles life.

Consoles also don't have to run several tasks at once including a massive OS which helps a lot esp with regards the Ram.

"Anyway, lets not argue, none of us can really say what the PS4/720 are capable of, they dont exist yet."

The devkits do though as Dela posted a thread about a few months ago, the same guys that leaked the WiiU specs in Jan of this year which turned out to be 100% true have also leaked PS4 / 720 devkit specs on several of the more geeky forums -

PS4 (Playstation Orbis) -

AMD 4 Core CPU / 2 TF GPU / 8 GB Ram / 4 or 5GB final.

720 (Xbox Loop) -

AMD 8 Core CPU / 1.8 TF GPU / 12GB Ram / 6GB final.

Devkits usually have double the Ram for debugging purposes but the other aspects of the Devkit also get upgraded along the way just as the WiiU's did so i would expect MS to hit the 2TF mark on the GPU side and Sony to maybe add an extra GB of Ram / improve the CPU before the final devkits.

Like i said you will need a top of the line Intel CPU / 16GB of Ram and a GTX 680 or above to match the next gen consoles performance on a PC.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 10:46:24 GMT
"Also I'd like to add FC3, BF3 look crap on console. My housemate has them both on 360 nd they look tosh compared to my PC. Especially FC3"

Only by comparison though, they are in no way bad looking games on 360.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 10:43:54 GMT
A few points lost in the PC vs console "war":

a) this isn't 2005, vast majority of games people play and the way they play has changed. Has no-one on this thread noticed that games can be played on a mobile device and they happen to be hugely profitable with low development costs.

b) consoles have highly optimized graphics libraries, there is no "fluff" in the coding. Yes on paper consoles will always be behind, but the fact developers can still produce such stunning games on old hardware has been lost.

c) if the vast majority of PC games weren't piratable some of my favourite franchises, and even new ones which should be, would still be available on the PC platform. So thank you to everyone who downloaded games, a big NOT. You can have the fanciest piece of PC kit in the whole world, but if developers and publishers don't even make games for it any more its just an expensive paperweight. (This is coming from someone who has been a self-certified PC gamer geek for the last 20 years, /sad panda)

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 10:42:50 GMT
Hackerdude says:
I'd say more and more frequently games are getting as well optimised for Pc nowadays. I'm getting 80FPS average on BL2 at max which is some unreal optimisation considering what is on screen. I think not too far down the line the PC will be as well, if not better optimised simply because games are developed on it. This will be even further set in stone as 'apparently' the new consoles are going to be more similar to PC's. So surely the Pc's are going to unleash there true power then.

I agree the consoles will catch up, but thats all they'l do, not level or out pace but catch up.

Also I'd like to add FC3, BF3 look crap on console. My housemate has them both on 360 nd they look tosh compared to my PC. Especially FC3.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 10:35:38 GMT
"Early PS4 / 720 exclusives / multi platform games will match anything a latest CPU / 16GB of Ram / GTX 680 gaming rig could pull off"

I'd just like to add. No they wont. Rumours are that the PS4 will be running a downclocked HD7770, a vastly inferior graphics card to even a GTX660 let alone 680! My brother PC has a 7770 and its not downcloked like the PS4 will be and that only marginly beats my GTX550Ti on a few games, even they are fast superior in visuals to any ps3/360 game!

Anyway, lets not argue, none of us can really say what the PS4/720 are capable of, they dont exist yet.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 Dec 2012 10:31:01 GMT
Ness says:
"Consoles are old tech when first released anyway - nevermind 6/7 years down the line!..."

PS4 has a 4 core AMD CPU / 2 TF GPU / 4GB's of Ram.

To match what PS4 can output on PC you will need a cutting edge Intel CPU / 2.5 - 4 TFLOP GPU / 16 GB's of Ram rig, why ?, because console games are highly, highly optimised and developed 'to the metal' which bring enormous performance gains and is a big part of the reason they can get multi platform games like i mentioned on my previous post to run at 720p / 30 fps and exclusive games like i mentioned above to look so astounding on hardware from 2005.

"The last 5 years the consoles have been vastly inferior compared to PC's"

Thats up for opinion, sure running something like BF3 at 1080p / 60 fps is nice but it being 'vastly inferior' on consoles is subjective. BF3 is also one of the few console ports on PC that takes advantage of the latest hardware, most console ports are exactly the same game that can be run at a higher resolution / framerate and AA if your PC can handle it.

"when the next gen is released all they will do is catch up - at very best - gone are the days when new consoles outshine PCs on release - the extension of the current gen has made sure of that..."

We will see, i don't see how extending the current generation of consoles would do anything but allow Sony / MS make their next gen consoles much more powerful than if they were released in 2011, they would likely have 2GB's of Ram instead of 4 / 6 GB's for starters and much weaker GPU's.

Posted on 7 Dec 2012 10:20:19 GMT
Last edited by the author on 7 Dec 2012 10:21:12 GMT
Dela says:
Consoles are old tech when first released anyway - nevermind 6/7 years down the line!...

The last 5 years the consoles have been vastly inferior compared to PC's and when the next gen is released all they will do is catch up - at very best - gone are the days when new consoles outshine PCs on release - the extension of the current gen has made sure of that...
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Participants:  18
Total posts:  95
Initial post:  30 Nov 2012
Latest post:  7 Dec 2012

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