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Are there reasons to believe the universe and/or life is designed?


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Initial post: 9 Dec 2013 20:27:04 GMT
Tosh says:
I am not looking for evidence or proof, just some rational reasons that presuppose a designer of some kind.

Posted on 9 Dec 2013 20:38:24 GMT
richard says:
Maybe we are predisposed to see design. we look for cause and effect and believe that there is a reason for everything. our whole approach to science has been about discovering that which was hidden to us to find out how nature and the universe works. i think it's quite easy to look around and think that everything must have been designed but the problem seems to be in trying to come to terms with a 'designer' as a concept that makes any kind of rational sense! not so much the design as the designer that is the problem. if on the other hand we see the universe designing itself then it all seems quite rational to me.

Posted on 9 Dec 2013 21:06:48 GMT
Tosh says:
Evening Richard,

Not bad, if it is cause and effect related then it is based on human experiences and intentionality, there is no such thing as original thought so our ancestors had to model their ideas on something they had experience of, anything that was cause and effect had to have an intention behind it, just like a human.

I think our minds are more predisposed to copying and making patterns than anything else, I believe we simply used ourselves as models to explain nature. Initially it was animism( dream copy), then a creator appeared (childbirth copy) and finally the designer concept, it did not appear until after we had begun designing things. The paleontologist Pascale Boyer did a study of primitive beliefs in Papua New Guinea, the Amazon and in Australia, it seems our hunter-gatherer ancestors were not predisposed to creators or designers, just spirits and unseen agents with intentions.

It is not a coincidence that Creation Science extrapolated even further to call it " Intelligent Design", again just a copy from or own experiences.

We may be predisposed to intentionality and personification, we say things like " luck is against me" etc, and we used to be extremely superstitious.

Thanks for your post.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2013 21:15:40 GMT
Last edited by the author on 9 Dec 2013 21:20:19 GMT
'In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there. (...) There must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed [the watch] for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use. (...) Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.'

-William Paley

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2013 21:28:52 GMT
Stu says:
Hi Tosh, in my humble opinion,I do not believe that the universe was designed at all, and it basically fell into place so to speak. When talking about life however,and in the twentieth century, life itself is more designed by each ancestral group,division,whatever you wish to call it. Down to the fact now that each couple designs the size of their family and how many children they have,by the use of condoms, the pill or the snip etc. Mostly according to their means, some do not of course, but that is merely their choice. so each generation is designed in size,not because couples sit back and look at the big picture but through their own choices.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2013 21:33:17 GMT
I hasten to add that I don't think Mr Paley was right. But that is not what you asked for.

Posted on 9 Dec 2013 22:03:59 GMT
Tosh says:
Paley's reasoning was rational before an alternative explanation was available, however genetic variation and natural selection soon rendered his reasoning irrational, evidence outweighs any subjective experience.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2013 22:07:21 GMT
Agreed. Though I'm not sure what experience is not subjective. Who's experience would that be?

Posted on 9 Dec 2013 22:09:46 GMT
Tosh says:
Stu,

Since we have no other universes to compare against, assuming ours is designed lacks logic, if it was not the way it was then we would not be here, I am not needy enough to believe the universe was designed precisely for us.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2013 22:12:56 GMT
Not for you. For Catholics.

In reply to an earlier post on 9 Dec 2013 22:17:59 GMT
Well it palpably wasn't designed precisely for us, as almost all of it is uninhabitable, indeed lethal, to us. That idea is an absurdity that only blind faith can ignore.

Posted on 9 Dec 2013 23:30:51 GMT
Last edited by the author on 9 Dec 2013 23:31:17 GMT
Tosh says:
I believe something like 30% of natural childbirths have fatal results for mother or child, if this is an example of intelligent design then I would hate to meet the God that was thick.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 03:44:07 GMT
Last edited by the author on 10 Dec 2013 04:19:31 GMT
light says:
Hi Tosh,

The designer is not a deity or any type of being, but some sort of Divine, cosmic masculine/feminine universal energy, (this energy was given the name of God). The energy works along the lines of cause and effect:

"4a - The Creation of the Universe

"A full-grown universe didn't just suddenly manifest - such a complex structure needed to be carefully designed and constructed step by step. But before we delve into the process of creation I need to clarify some of the terminology used and provide you with some important background information.

Positive and Negative Existence
The universe can be described as "positive existence" (or just simply "existence") and anything outside of the universe (i.e. the metaverse) can be described as "negative existence" (which is not the same as non-existence). Negative existence does not mean something doesn't exist; it means it exists beyond space and time in a "reality" that we cannot even begin to comprehend.

The Infinite
The Infinite is the metaverse; the passive Creator; the Ain Soph of Kabbalah; the Parabrahman of Hinduism; the sum total of positive and negative existence. The Infinite is the ultimate GOD of Gods, but he is a passive God that supplies and maintains the primordial matter and energy of the metaverse that his "children" need to build their own universes. Everything that exists (and also everything that does not exist) is sustained by the endless power of the Infinite. The Infinite is the father of everything and also the mother of everything. When the two aspects of energy (father) and matter (mother) combine an infinite number of primordial atoms or monads (sons) are born into existence. The monads are initially unconscious but they have the potential to become Absolutes (fully realised and liberated Gods of their own universes).
The word "infinite" is usually understood to mean "endless", but it actually has two aspects - it is without beginning and without end. So questions like "where did it come from?", "what existed before it?" and "will it ever end?" are meaningless. The Infinite has always been and always will be. The infinite encompasses everything, so nothing can be outside of it. The Kabbalistic term "Ain" is usually understood to mean "nothing" in the sense of an empty void beyond the Infinite (Ain Soph), but that is impossible since nothing can "exist" beyond infinity. So perhaps it is best to describe Ain as "not even nothing", or to forget about it completely because it is impossible.

The Absolute
The Absolute is the creator of the universe, the Ain Soph Aur (limitless light) of Kabbalah, The Brahman of Hinduism. "Absolute" (from the Latin Absolutum) means freed or liberated. The Absolute is a perfected monad that has liberated itself from the illusion of the universe it "grew up" in and has become the unmanifest God of his own Universe. It therefore spans negative existence and positive existence. The Absolute can focus his attention inwards on the universe, or outwards into the metaverse.
Like everything else in existence, the Absolute has three aspects:
The Energy aspect directs the primordial energy (of the Infinite) to power the universe and all creation.
The Consciousness aspect is the universal mind that unites all creation within a single collective consciousness. The universe was conceived by the universal mind, it is sustained by meditative focus, and would dissolve back into negative existence if this concentration ceased.
The Matter aspect is the 49-atoms, the virgin matter (the celestial Virgin Mary) from which the various planes are built. Matter is the cosmic womb in which evolving monads develop their consciousness.

Zero-Point Energy
Zero point energy is the infinite energy that originates from beyond the universe. It is the energy that the Absolute uses to bring 49-atoms into positive existence from the negatively existing primordial matter. Tiny vortices are formed in the dense, homogenous and fluid primordial matter. The vortices flip inside-out creating spinning bubbles of emptiness. Each of these bubbles of negative-existence corresponds to a 49-atom in positive existence. The 49-atoms are packets of energy (quanta) that distribute zero point energy throughout all the planes of the universe. Plato called zero point energy "dynamis", and in the East it is called "fohat".

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 04:13:33 GMT
light says:
Tosh,

Another notion is that the Universe came into being by the sound of Aum:

The essence of Aum

"Aum is a single, indivisible sound; it is the vibration of the Supreme. Aum is the seed-sound of the universe, for with this sound God set into motion the first vibration of His creation. The most powerful of all mantras is Aum; Aum is the mother of all mantras. At every second God is creating Himself anew inside Aum. Without birth is Aum, without death is Aum. Nothing else but Aum existed, exists and will forever exist.

Aum is a single Sanskrit character represented in English by three letters, but pronounced as one syllable. The syllable Aum is indivisible, but each portion of it represents a different aspect of the Supreme. The 'A' represents and embodies the consciousness of God the Creator, the 'U' embodies the consciousness of God the Preserver and the 'M' embodies the consciousness of God the Transformer. Taken together, Aum is the spontaneous cosmic rhythm with which God embraces the universe."

.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 04:30:27 GMT
light says:
Kabbalah says that God created the universe through the Hebrew letters which are from the angelic realm. God contracted himself,breathed in, which created a void, on his out breath everything came into existence starting with stardust.....about 150 billion years ago.

"With Thirty-two Mystical Paths of Wisdom
God (Yah...) engraved and created His Universe
with Three Sepharim:
with Sefer (letters),
with Sephar (numbers)
and with Sippur (a story).


(The Thirty-two Paths are:)
Ten Sefirot of Nothingness and Twenty-two Foundation Letters -
Three Mother Letters, Seven Double Letters and Twelve Simple Letters."


The Thirty-two Paths of Mystical Wisdom derive from the first chapter of Genesis, the story of Creation in which the Name of God (Elohim) is mentioned thirty-two times.

Elohim, a plural Name of God, is used in the Story of Creation because Creation is the process whereby the One manifests as the Many through Ten Divine Utterances - Ten Sefirot. Look at the ten phrases that contain the Name of God (Elohim) and encircle the ten `clusters' of dots that are in this picture. This version of the Tree of Life diagram is based on the system of the Vilna Gaon (Rabbi Eliyahu of Vilna) who wrote a famous commentary on Sefer Yetzirah, The Book of Creation,

1 - `In the beginning Elohim created...'
Keter
3 - `Elohim said, Let there be a firmament...' 2 - `Elohim said, Let there be light...'
Binah Chochmah
6 - `Elohim said Let there be luminaries in the firmament...'
Tiferet
5 - `Elohim said, Earth, bring forth grass...' 4 - `Elohim said, Waters, gather together...'
Gevurah Chesed
9 - `Elohim said, Let us make Adam...'
Yesod
8 - `Elohim said, Earth, bring forth animals...' 7 - `Elohim said, Waters, swarm with life...'
Hod Netzach
10 - `Elohim said to them, Be fruitful and multiply...'
Malchut

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 04:54:01 GMT
Last edited by the author on 10 Dec 2013 04:56:01 GMT
light says:
Tosh,

"I believe something like 30% of natural childbirths have fatal results for mother or child, if this is an example of intelligent design then I would hate to meet the God that was thick."

God is life itself, in this sense everything which is a part of life happens: life, death, birth defects, murder.......God/life is as personal as we make it.

People can use the energy of life to create peace or people can use the energy of life to create destruction, it's our choice.

God/life is personal in the way that we breath the air, it becomes a part of us, we drink the water, it becomes part of us, we eat the food which is grown from the earth, it becomes part of us......

Everything is connected, we are all part of one Universal consciousness. Plants, animals, people, tables, chairs......are all part of a unified field, nothing is completely solid, in between all the atoms is space which is part of the unified field, everything is part of the unified field, in this sense we are all One.

Being separate is an illusion, nothing is separate, everything is connected.

Greed, power mongering, cheating, stealing, war......creates devastation, every negative action has an affect on someone or something. Innocent people and other lifeforms are always affected by some else's harmful behavior.

So to comment on your statement, babies and mothers die as a result of natural circumstances, which includes many different reasons.

The more mankind destroys the earth the more mankind destroys himself and all of life.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 08:26:49 GMT
Tosh says:
" Everything is connected, we are all part of one Universal consciousness. Plants, animals, people, tables, chairs......are all part of a unified field, "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mmmm, if everything is part of one consciousness that leaves nothing to be conscious of, how does that work?

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 09:21:44 GMT
light,

"Negative existence does not mean something doesn't exist; it means it exists beyond space and time in a "reality" that we cannot even begin to comprehend."
"Zero point energy is the infinite energy that originates from beyond the universe."

But you claim we cannot comprehend anything beyond our universe. But here you are basing your entire argument on something you have comprehended from beyond our universe.

"The Matter aspect is the 49-atoms, the virgin matter (the celestial Virgin Mary) from which the various planes are built. Matter is the cosmic womb in which evolving monads develop their consciousness."

I don't for one minute suppose you have evidence for this?

"Another notion is that the Universe came into being by the sound of Aum"

There could be no sound before the universe came into being. Unless, of course, you have evidence to back this up.

"God contracted himself,breathed in, which created a void, on his out breath everything came into existence starting with stardust.....about 150 billion years ago."

Again, evidence? The universe is not 150 billion years old. We have mountains of evidence to show this.

" Plants, animals, people, tables, chairs......are all part of a unified field, nothing is completely solid, in between all the atoms is space which is part of the unified field, everything is part of the unified field, in this sense we are all One."

And you have evidence for this "unified field" of course?

Its a wonderful idea that you've come up with but its all made-up hippy claptrap. Did you take drugs in the sixties and mix with weird long haired gurus who were "mystics"?

WHen you come out with this kind of fantastical amazing ideas, you need to have some resemblance of evidence. The more fantastic the idea, the more evidence is required. I think it is safe to say you have none. Without evidence, its all a dream. I could go further and call it barking mad. ANd I can save you the trouble of calling me close-minded or negative or not willing to open my heart or being blind to it all. None of that superfluous personal objective view is required. We simply need cold hard evidence. And we have that with observation - its called science and it works rather well.

Posted on 10 Dec 2013 09:40:04 GMT
Tosh says:
..........and another thing, if God is also part of this ONE consciousness it cannot be conscious of our existence, don't like the sound of your hypothesis, sounds goofy, I assume it denies death like the rest of our fables, an eternal one consciousness with nothing to be conscious of sounds like hell to me.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 18:56:11 GMT
Spin says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 23:37:29 GMT
light says:
Hi Rev,

Haven't seen you in a while, hope you are well?

"Again, evidence? The universe is not 150 billion years old. We have mountains of evidence to show this."

Whoops I meant to change that to 15 billion years old before I posted it, thanks for pointing it out.

"WHen you come out with this kind of fantastical amazing ideas, you need to have some resemblance of evidence."

The fantastical amazing ideas you mention are merely copied and pasted from sites about mystical explanations of how the universe came into existence, I was only giving Tosh some alternative explanations.

"The more fantastic the idea, the more evidence is required. I think it is safe to say you have none."

As far as I know there is no evidence for mysticism. So it is safe to say that you are correct.

"Without evidence, its all a dream. I could go further and call it barking mad."

Yes, mystical dreamlike, as in the way of the Unicorn ;o) Whether or not it barks is unknown.

"ANd I can save you the trouble of calling me close-minded or negative or not willing to open my heart or being blind to it all. None of that superfluous personal objective view is required."

No fear, as I do not talk to people in the manner, However a parable about 4 blind men who describe an elephant comes to mind, which one of them are correct?

"Its a wonderful idea that you've come up with but its all made-up hippy claptrap. Did you take drugs in the sixties and mix with weird long haired gurus who were "mystics"?"

I did not come up with this hippy stuff, actually it's been around way longer than hippies, the thought is thousands of years old. Actually no, I did not take drugs in the sixties, it was in the seventies ;o) And yes most of my homies had long hair.

"And you have evidence for this "unified field" of course?"

I thought this was already being investigated? Millions and millions have been poured into it, has it not?

my quote, ""Another notion is that the Universe came into being by the sound of Aum"

You, "There could be no sound before the universe came into being. Unless, of course, you have evidence to back this up."

The universe is never ending, it expands until it cannot expand anymore then it collapses over and over again, isn't science working on this? Mysticism says that this has the sound of Aum. I do not hav evidence for this for the sound of aum during all the combustion and collapse.

"We simply need cold hard evidence. And we have that with observation - its called science and it works rather well."

Yes science is working on it and it will continue to prove more and more as billions upon billions continue to be spent.

thanks light

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 23:39:51 GMT
light says:
"mmmm, if everything is part of one consciousness that leaves nothing to be conscious of, how does that work?"

Not everyone is conscious of their connected with everything, they think that they are separate and go about their business causing havoc with their selfishness and egocentric behavior.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 23:40:52 GMT
light says:
Spin,

I haven't heard of Husserls theory of consciousness, is it worth a look?

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Dec 2013 23:45:20 GMT
light says:
"don't like the sound of your hypothesis, sounds goofy, I assume it denies death like the rest of our fables, an eternal one consciousness with nothing to be conscious of sounds like hell to me."

Yes it denies death of the spirit, but not physical death.

Haven't spoken to Goofy so I can't say what he sounds like ;o)

Posted on 12 Dec 2013 19:23:20 GMT
Tosh says:
light,

Can you clarify what a spirit is?
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  22
Total posts:  496
Initial post:  9 Dec 2013
Latest post:  24 Dec 2013

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