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Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?


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Initial post: 1 Dec 2013 02:48:15 GMT
Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

The Jewish view. http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php

"Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue"

In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God's, --- as man being elevated.
Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fall and all of us inheriting our forefather's sin. http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/dict_meaning.php?source=1&wid=T0001304

"They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God."

The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 08:42:38 GMT
Drew Jones says:
It didn't happen so the question is redundant.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 09:49:08 GMT
That's a bit like arguing over the best husbandry methods for unicorns. Without evidence they are just two opposing, but highly subjective and unevidenced opinions.

Posted on 1 Dec 2013 10:08:06 GMT
GIA

You're saying the son of man died because of the fall of man. In Ezekiel what is also being discussed is that previously God had punished whole communities because of their collective wickedness, but that this should change. The theology gets incredibly complicated, and I'm not sure we can deal with it here.

Posted on 1 Dec 2013 16:57:03 GMT
I Readalot says:
It is all a matter of interpretation and who is doing it. Besides the Bible has gone through so many translations it is highly possible that the interpretations are based on words being inaccurately translated at some stage and the original meaning was something completely different.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 18:13:49 GMT
Drew

Christians used the story to discriminate against women for all of these years while Jews did not, --- but let's not let those details stop you from not opining.

s it is good to leave the present impressions out there. No.

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 18:15:30 GMT
Dr S

Sure but the moral differences say quite a bit. Care to opine?

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 18:19:02 GMT
C E S

I am not saying that at all. I gave that as a moral reference only.

Eden and it's morals are at issue. Nothing else at the moment.

Regards
DL

Posted on 1 Dec 2013 18:20:06 GMT
Eden is just a myth, lad.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 18:20:43 GMT
I R

True but that does not mean that what is believed today with what is given cannot be analysed for it's moral content.

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 18:24:13 GMT
Ryan

I know. A myth that has been used forever to deny women equality.

Let's not analyse it and let it stand un-apposed.

That will serve women well. Not.

Let's not call an immoral Christian theology evil.

Regards
DL

Posted on 1 Dec 2013 18:35:16 GMT
Eden is mostly the myth of the golden age: the time when everything was absolutely perfect. Stupid idea, but it still seems to grip the moral-majority types.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 18:38:42 GMT
Yes and they have used it as a club against women and their equality forever.

No wonder that the early church depicted Satan as a woman. She has to take the shame that belongs to man.

Regards
DL

Posted on 1 Dec 2013 19:00:27 GMT
Last edited by the author on 1 Dec 2013 19:01:46 GMT
Think you're a tad fixated on the anti-women angle, self-evident as it is.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 19:02:28 GMT
Not really GIa, being an atheist I don't consider the question worth debating, which was my point, as both positions are based on a fiction. Others feel differently obviously, as is their right.

Posted on 1 Dec 2013 19:05:50 GMT
I have to say the story of Eden is incomprehensible to me.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 22:19:06 GMT
"Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

So why did God condemn all of us because of Adam's original sin? If you are not to blame for your father's sins - another great biblical contradiction.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Dec 2013 22:40:06 GMT
Mrs. F. Shaw says:
"Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin."

Phew, well that's alright then. I thought I would be put to death because of something my dad did but lucky for me I'm going to be put to death for something I did. I feel so much better....

Does anyone feel a Monty Python sketch coming on? :)

Posted on 1 Dec 2013 23:11:18 GMT
Spin says:
An Atheist, who detests religious belief, quoting the Bible...Will wonders never cease?

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Dec 2013 14:40:32 GMT
We are not all sinners as such. Satan is here to mislead all men, except the servants of God.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Dec 2013 14:59:45 GMT
Satan is a fantasy. I think a lot of intelligent theists have moved on from literally believing he exists to the point where he's used as a metaphor for evil or bad behaviour. Personally I think we'd all be better off if we accepted the obvious truth that we're entirely responsible for our own actions.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Dec 2013 15:01:49 GMT
Bearman says:
I read a post recently (probably one of Marylin's) which was suggesting that Satan was gay (self absorbed with his own beauty and then rejected by god etc).

It left me chuckling for hours - satan is just "fabulous".

Posted on 2 Dec 2013 15:09:13 GMT
Dan Fante says:
The Devil has all the best tunes. And styling tips.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Dec 2013 15:13:19 GMT
Bearman says:
Does he have a lisp?

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Dec 2013 15:14:28 GMT
Dan Fante says:
I have to confess, you've lost me there.
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  16
Total posts:  154
Initial post:  1 Dec 2013
Latest post:  4 Dec 2013

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