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Is homophobia a distraction.


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Showing 1-25 of 94 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 8 Apr 2014 07:38:25 BDT
Heretic says:
Is homophobia a well rehearsed distraction used on forums such as this by theists and religionists in order to avoid discussion of the argument "There is no God?" ?

I'm sick and fed up of every discussion being sidelined by homophobia or UFO's or whatever? If these topics were kept in their own space then that would be fine as those that wanted to discuss it could but it feels like a virus, an illness that infests these pages.

I think it is deliberate, planned and a strategy used because in the end homophobia is becoming an almost identifiable religion in it's own right with Secular, Christian and Islamic denominations - Sort of like a mini C of E but based on bigotry and hatred instead of platitudes.

The homophobes always seem to come up short when it comes to real argument and come up very short when asked for evidence - This definitely sounds like religion to me.

I understand confusion when it comes to homosexuality as I feel that myself but bigotry is inexcusable. I think the homophobes need religion to justify their stance because every other justification has slowly been taken away from them.

It seems to be principally atheists that have taken the fight to the homophobes but it's the theists and religionists that are coming out badly because it is their cause that is being besmirched because they are are not in the fight. I would understand theists and religionists not standing up for homosexuality but what I cannot understand is them not standing against bigotry aimed at homosexuals (I am generalising and I may of missed a theist in the fight [If so I apologise] but I just glaze over when it comes to this ping pong fight with vicious overtones). If religion drives the homophobes out from under the shelter of it's wings then bigotry will lose.

I suspect that until homophobia is driven out of polite society that it will be nearly impossible to have a reasoned and reasonable discussion about homosexuality and homosexuals.

It would help if homosexuals were not quite and strident as they appear to have become. They have won most of the battles they needed to and have the majority on their side. Their new battle is to keep the goodwill of the general public and a less strident tone might do them more good in the long term.

Heretic

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 07:59:24 BDT
Last edited by the author on 8 Apr 2014 08:00:42 BDT
Withnail says:
I agree with almost everything you have said here.

Almost - I disagree with your last paragraph. I don't know if you remember the Paul Whitehouse/Harry Hill recurring sketches "Women know your limits", but your last paragraph is a little like that. If someone wants to be confrontational about their sexuality, then that is up to them. That said, can you point to one gay poster here who has used a "strident tone"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 08:07:54 BDT
Trying my best not to be too strident. Can't say it's easy though.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 09:41:06 BDT
I think I know what Heretic means here. Now we have the equality issue sorted a bit of general relaxation would be good. Can we move on to the next big thing? It ain't going to matter what your sexual orientation is if the global temperature rises 5C!

Doesn't mean we should forget though. The anti-freedom grups will start nibbling away if we don't keep one eye open.

A propos absolutely nothing, I came across an article about ten new words, in the Guardian.

**Schadengayfreude** noun Delight in the misfortune of gay couples who, once wed, experience the same trials as straight married couples. I know it's schadengayfreude, but it was kinda refreshing to see that Laura and Jane started bickering all the time after they got married.

Shared suffering brings sides together!

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 10:19:11 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 10:38:05 BDT
Wayne, it has reached almost Pythonesque proportions or more accurately Fawlty Towers proportions... Don't mention the war! Aristotle and Plato, according to that well loved poster, Poopsey, were less interested in philosophy that they were in homosexuality if you go by the number of times the two are mentioned juxtaposed. It does become wearing after a while.

Posted on 8 Apr 2014 11:39:07 BDT
Ian says:
I can't tell the difference between asking gays to be "not quite as strident as they have become" and "I'm all for equal rights but do they have to shove down my throat?" (pause to snigger).

Likewise; climate change is irrelevant to gay rights (unless you're that idiot MP who thinks climate change is God's retribution for allowing gay marriage). I grew up in the 80's when we seemed to be constantly told that things were much worse in Russia whenever we complained about anything. That there are other problems or other people suffering more is NEVER an answer.

To suggest that because marriage is now equal means that all the problems that society creates for homosexuals are solved is, unfortunately, nonsense. When gay teenagers feel no concerns at all about coming out and gay adults can safely travel or live anywhere in the world (and have their marriage recognised as identical to a heterosexual couple - the very fact that we still refer to "gay marriage" rather than "marriage" is telling), then we can ignore this nonsense.

It's like saying we have equality for women and ethnic minorities because it has been the law for decades so we can ignore women's rights and racism as non-issues.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 12:06:33 BDT
Withnail says:
"In the olden days, before Tom the issue of homosexuality was generally raised by atheists and often side-tracked arguments of the discussion of "There is a God"".

Not that I recall - to the best of my recollection there has always been a strand of anti homosexuality on these threads and invariably it is raised by the more traditonal wing of the Christian posters on these threads. If you want to prove me wrong feel free to search back.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 12:14:07 BDT
I think you are being a little unfair here. There are many issues that are important, sexual abuse of children, slavery, women's rights et al and they all need taking care of but that does not mean that they should be held up as the only thing that needs taking care of. I have serious concerns about reparative therapy - I note that it is banned in a couple of US states - and was pleased to see that an MP is raising this for the house to discuss. These issues do not go away nor should they NOR was it being suggested that they should. Like many problems you have to break the back of the issue and then leave some to tidy up whilst the main thrust moves on. Pragmatically from a legal POV the gay rights movement has won and has equal rights. There will be outstanding issues one of which I have mentioned but from all practical purposes we have broken the back of the problem.

Of course Climate change is irrelevant to gay rights but that was never the point. It is however a major and concerning issue which requires at least the same momentum as we gave to gay rights. The point about gay or any other rights being irrelevant if the world temperature rises 5C however is exactly pertinent.

Posted on 8 Apr 2014 12:32:58 BDT
Ghostgrey51 says:
Just one Christian speaking...

I try and relate to people by their deeds, motivations and how they treat other folk; to me anyone who claims to be in touch with God and has this message that same-sex folk are essentially wrong is not reading their Bible properly.
It can be quite salutary sometimes to hear or read the same level of intolerance used against theists as gays, albeit from different parts of society. Puts one in another's shoes as it were.

When visiting the Yahoo news site I have been appalled by the levels of ignorant intolerance that lurk in the comments sections, thus I have felt that any level of intolerance/hate against a group in society is something to be worked out of society and so not a distraction.

Human nature being what it is we all tend to argue for our own group/ view point, and at times we tend to feel others 'don't get it'. That won't change. At the risk of repeating where the danger lies in picking on another entire group as being the cause of ills (by this I mean groups who do not indulge in criminal activity).

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 12:44:20 BDT
Hi Withnail.

It takes a certain degree of fanaticism to pigeon hole a whole group of people and then categorise them as somehow of lesser value. Atheists can do this (anyone can) but in reality it requires organisations and organisation to do this with a vengeance. For some reason religion seems to provide a commonality for this. Look at the BJP in India. Muslims are in for a bad time if the BJP makes significant gains or, heaven forfend, gets a majority. Who would be a Christian in Pakistan or a Muslim in CAR?.... or gay anywhere near the Wesboro Baptist Church!?

I am sure I have prejudices but on my own these prejudices can have no impact on my neighbour. It is only when a group forms with like minded prejudices that the real issue starts. Atheists are not, as atheists, group forming. They may be members of groups for many reasons but being an atheist is generally not one of them. That does not appear to be true for most Theists.

Posted on 8 Apr 2014 14:13:59 BDT
Stu says:
I bought this up with Sheldon not too long ago as the forum seemed to be taken over by threads on homosexuality, it is for religion as Sheldon now keeps pointing out to everyone bless his lycra socks. If posters didn't start threads on homosexuality then it would not be discussed.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 16:14:05 BDT
You are probably right Sti... the only way to get a discussion that is not about homosexuality qis to start a discussion on homosexuality! It does indicate, however, just how deep the obsession goes with that small number of posters that they cannot tear themselves away for any length of time.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 16:20:35 BDT
Stu says:
Exactly Nestov .

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 17:56:09 BDT
Last edited by the author on 8 Apr 2014 18:11:38 BDT
Kleist says:
Heretic says: 'I suspect that until homophobia is driven out of polite society that it will be nearly impossible to have a reasoned and reasonable discussion about homosexuality and homosexuals.'

What is there to discuss? Isn't this a little like saying 'until racism is driven out of polite society it will be nearly impossible to have a reasonable discussion about Negros'? Or 'until anti-Semitism is etc... it will be hard to discuss Jews.'?

The problem is not homosexuals and homosexuality, but bigotry and lack of acceptance. This creates the minority.

But it is as important as racism or anti-Semitism and leads to the same ideologies. It is important because it testifies to how bigotry can hide behind religious belief and how able to harbour it that belief is. There is more to religious discussion than whether God exists. There is also the question as to what kind of people believe that He does and what else they believe they are justified in saying and believing.

How many Catholics or Christians in general have I heard express their disgust and outrage at Tom M or MKM for their horrible bigoted remarks? One, I think. Why? Doesn't it matter to them that someone is claiming these views as Christian to people who might very well not know better? Or do they - at least tacitly - agree?

I don't know the answer. Which worries me a great deal.

Edit. Incidentally homosexuality and heterosexuality are rationally discussed, just not by people like MKM and Tom M (because they are not rational). Just as race is discussed rationally without racism. A friend of mine wrote his PhD on the factors involved in a persons sexuality.

Posted on 8 Apr 2014 18:50:14 BDT
It seems to hint at latent insanity, as the merest perusal of either Dim M or Mad Maz's posts suggest.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 18:56:17 BDT
Stu says:
Some of your points raised in your post Tony are quite worrying in fact, especially points that catholics and Christians just seem to accept what Tom M and MKM say without objection, whereas atheist have spoken up against their bigotry.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 19:08:04 BDT
Kleist says:
Agreed.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 19:10:07 BDT
Kleist says:
It worries me stu.

Nobody slamming me down, saying: 'Tony we can't stomach this cruel bigotry any more than you can. Don't identify these people with the teachings of our church. They are deluded and evil people.' I would if anybody identified them with my beliefs.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 19:21:00 BDT
Last edited by the author on 8 Apr 2014 19:22:37 BDT
Withnail says:
To be fair I just saw a post by Ghost grey saying pretty much that, and I'm sure I have seen Anita condemning child abuse in the church.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 19:28:03 BDT
Kleist says:
True Withnail.

I'm grateful to be corrected. Anita often challenged Tom and MKM but has now about given up reading them I expect. I don't know Ghostgrey's posts at all, so I shalt comment any further than to note that what you say is true, but exceptional.

Anita, I'm sure she will agree, could hardly be called a very orthodox theist. Indeed I'm not sure she would even describe herself as a Christian at all.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 19:39:47 BDT
Heretic says:
Ian says: "I can't tell the difference between asking gays to be "not quite as strident as they have become" and "I'm all for equal rights but do they have to shove down my throat?" (pause to snigger)."

My daughter is gay and I have a more than average amount of contact with gay people. Some think of the gay rights campaign as their whole reason for existence, a bit like some of the homophobes actually, and for them it is a war. While I understand that gay rights are not a done deal I also understand that the general public can get fed up of one minority group winging all the time, sometimes people just need a break. Also on the agenda that is jammed down peoples throats is Islamophobia, Female Genital Mutilation, woman priests, Europe, Bankers bonuses, MP's expenses, bedroom tax, ATOS's campaign against disabled people (it feel like it anyway), government denial of the responsibility of the rich for creating the financial crisis, global warming, building on flood planes etc etc etc add to this mass immigration and a war or two. I think you get the picture. When any of these get too much prominence then the public reacts against it, it gets bored when anything is shoved down it's throat too much. This reaction isn't homophobia but it is a heartfelt "shut up for ten minutes and lets deal with something else for a moment". Gay right is not the most important of the issues we are facing at the minute although it might seem so for those 'for' and 'against'. We can walk away for a bit, deal with something else and still keep half an eye on gay rights.

I have openly said that the whole issue is a mass of confusion to me but people are people and we are all due respect whatever our personal lives (as long as we hurt nobody, especially children) or orientation. I dislike religion especially Roman Catholicism but that does not stop me having religious friends (and sadly relatives) and the same goes for 'gay' PEOPLE.

I see these pages, supposedly monitored by Amazon (probably just a Unix script run in a loop to look for a few key words and with a human intervention a couple of times a day), used to promote misunderstanding and hatred against a minority group. It may of backfired because there are a few stalwarts that counter every false claim however many times it is repeated. I tip my hat to them. I just see it as a distraction because the source of most bigotry towards 'gays' is religion. Defeat religion and the source of the hatred is gone. The rest can only be conquered by education and time passing.

Heretic

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 19:43:54 BDT
"That said, can you point to one gay poster here who has used a "strident tone"?"

Tom M, Bladders?

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 19:44:46 BDT
To be honest I had to look it up, thought it was a brand of toothpaste.

In reply to an earlier post on 8 Apr 2014 19:48:42 BDT
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  20
Total posts:  94
Initial post:  8 Apr 2014
Latest post:  14 Apr 2014

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