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Parents given jail terms for relying on prayers to save dying daughter.


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Initial post: 4 Jul 2013 22:55:23 BDT
Last edited by the author on 4 Jul 2013 22:58:08 BDT
Charlieost says:
Associated Press
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 7 October 2009 16.08 BST

A central Wisconsin couple who prayed rather than seeking medical care for their 11-year-old dying daughter were sentenced to six months in jail and 10 years probation in the girl's death.

Dale and Leilani Neumann could have received up to 25 years in prison for second-degree homicide over the death in March 2008 of Madeline Neumann, who died of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes.

Marathon county circuit court Judge Vincent Howard told the Neumanns they were "very good people, raising their family who made a bad decision, a reckless decision".

"God probably works through other people," he told the parents, "some of them doctors."

The case was believed to be the first of its kind in Wisconsin involving faith healing in which someone died and another person was charged with a homicide.

Prosecutors claimed that the Neumanns recklessly killed their youngest of four children by ignoring obvious symptoms of severe illness as she became too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk. They said the couple had a legal duty to take their daughter to a doctor but relied totally on prayer for healing.

The girl, known as Kara, died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called the emergency dispatcher only after she stopped breathing.

"We are here today because to some, you made Kara a martyr to your faith," Howard told the parents.

In testimony at the trial and videotaped interviews with police, the parents said they believe healing comes from God and that they never expected their daughter to die as they prayed for her and summoned others to do the same. A friend who was at the family's rural Weston home called the ambulance after Kara stopped breathing.

During the sentencing, Leilani Neumann, 41, told the judge her family is loving and forgiving and has wrongly been portrayed as religious zealots.

"I do not regret trusting truly in the Lord for my daughter's health," she said. "Did we know she had a fatal illness? No. Did we act to the best of our knowledge? Yes."

Dale Neumann, 47, read from the Bible and told the judge he loved his daughter.

"I am guilty of trusting my Lord's wisdom completely ... Guilty of asking for heavenly intervention. Guilty of following Jesus Christ when the whole world does not understand. Guilty of obeying my God," he said.

The Neumanns held each other as Howard sentenced them, a Bible on the table nearby and their three teenage children sitting behind them in the courtroom.

Prosecutors had asked for a three-year suspended prison sentence and 10 years probation. Defence lawyers had sought four years probation.

The judge ordered the couple to serve one month in jail each year for six years so that the parents can "think about Kara and what God wants you to learn from this". One parent would serve the term in March and the other in September. Howard suspended the jail sentences until the appeal is heard.

As part of their probation, the parents must allow a public health nurse to examine their two underage children at least once every three months and must immediately take their children to a doctor for any serious injuries.

The assistant district attorney, LaMont Jacobson, said justice was served by the sentences, but he was disappointed that the parents never said they were sorry for what happened.

"They allowed Kara to die because they got themselves too caught up in the misguided belief that they were being tested by God," the prosecutor said.

Dale Neumann, who once studied to be a pentecostal minister, told reporters that the couple continues to trust in God.

"We live by faith," he said after the sentencing. "We are completely content with what the Lord has allowed to come down, but he is not done yet."

It is the last line that really gets to me. Astonishing. C

Posted on 4 Jul 2013 23:15:14 BDT
J Doyle says:
God Answers Prayers Of Paralyzed Little Boy
'No,' Says God

http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-answers-prayers-of-paralyzed-little-boy,475/

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 07:52:11 BDT
[Deleted by Amazon on 24 Jul 2013 10:00:57 BDT]

Posted on 5 Jul 2013 08:30:38 BDT
And what happens if you let 2 of your children die:

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/faith-healing-parents-herbert-and-catherine-schaible-still-believers/story-fndir2ev-1226650609199

"Medicine is against our religious beliefs".

These people are serious nutcases. Still, it does say in the bible that you will get whatever you pray for if you have faith. Did god not hear this family?

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 08:58:42 BDT
Bellatori says:
"Did god not hear this family? " As above, he heard the prayers and said "No, that's what a health service is for"... they just did not listen carefully enough I guess.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 09:00:18 BDT
[Deleted by Amazon on 24 Jul 2013 10:01:00 BDT]

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 14:33:35 BDT
Stu says:
or anyone that recognises them and maybe they will end up in the nearest river with weights around their ankles

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 14:36:06 BDT
[Deleted by Amazon on 24 Jul 2013 10:01:42 BDT]

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 14:44:01 BDT
Stu says:
better put weights round their neck aswell then clive

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 14:48:04 BDT
G. Heron says:
I can't help wondering if they had believed that aliens were going to come down in a flying saucer to cure their child would they have ended up in prison or a secure mental hospital?

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 14:49:16 BDT
[Deleted by Amazon on 24 Jul 2013 10:01:45 BDT]

Posted on 5 Jul 2013 18:11:15 BDT
Spin says:
What would your reaction be if the girl had survived? No doubt you would put it down to "coincidence". My point is that it is that using the death of a child to deride religious belief is logical nonsense, since you do not use a persons survival as an argument in favour of religious belief. No matter the outcome of a situation, the atheist will find some excuse to discount the possibility of deific intervention and deride religious belief. Arguing that "prayer does not work" is nothing more than assumption, based only on what the media reports to you, and on what you think "prayer" should be, not what it actually is.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 18:50:01 BDT
Bellatori says:
"Arguing that "prayer does not work" is nothing more than assumption"

Something else about which you clearly know nothing but we can add it to the list...

There has been quite a lot of research in this area should you bother to look for it. It was discussed at some length on another thread.

Are we about to enter another spin cycle I wonder.?

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 18:56:00 BDT
Spin says:
Bellatori: You miss my point. On another thread atheists are deriding the decision to make a Pope a Saint. They laugh at the idea that prayer resulted in two "miracles". That is, they argue that the failure of prayer supports the idea that religion is nonsense but then they argue that the success of prayer is no more than a "coincidence" or such like. My point concerns the logic and validity of the premises of your argument, not your beliefs.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 18:58:43 BDT
[Deleted by Amazon on 24 Jul 2013 10:01:58 BDT]

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 19:04:25 BDT
Bellatori says:
No beliefs involved. I quoted what you wrote and once again you are wrong. There has been a lot of research on the efficacy of prayer. Secondly the other thread rightly questions the nature of a miracle. These miracles were 'miraculous' healing. The intercession of JPII is a complete red herring. There is no difference between these miraculous events inside and outside the RCC. Logic says that if the rate of miracles is the same intercession is therefore not a factor.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 19:22:36 BDT
Spin says:
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Posted on 5 Jul 2013 19:24:34 BDT
[Deleted by Amazon on 24 Jul 2013 10:02:06 BDT]

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 19:27:14 BDT
Bellatori says:
"based solely on reported instances where it did not work." Nope... usual waffle.... based on scientific research as I stated before. BTW you are in the spin cycle because you are trying to drift your argument by claiming it is not what you said. It was what you said!!

Spin dry ...

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 19:46:58 BDT
Last edited by the author on 5 Jul 2013 19:47:15 BDT
Spin says:
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Posted on 5 Jul 2013 20:25:29 BDT
J Doyle says:
If a drug company set up clinical trials to test a drug, and the number of people reportedly feeling better after taking the medicine was no different to the number from a similar group taking sugar pills, then I would be very sceptical of the drug company's claims about the efficacy of their product.

Random positive outcomes for events which can also be explained naturally are not convincing claims for the efficacy of anything.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 20:38:30 BDT
Spin says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 20:42:05 BDT
Bellatori says:
How about a couple of US research papers...? That would do for a start.

You meant it for humour... many a true word...

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 20:42:50 BDT
Bellatori says:
That would be because you have never been involved in drug trials and scientific research...

In reply to an earlier post on 5 Jul 2013 20:44:41 BDT
Spin says:
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  33
Total posts:  826
Initial post:  4 Jul 2013
Latest post:  19 Jul 2013

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