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What was the fight between God and Satan about?


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Initial post: 5 Nov 2013 18:27:24 GMT
What was the fight between God and Satan about?

Let us remember that no one was there to record anything and we have to somehow explain why God put Satan in Eden. Everything said is thus speculation only, --- be it from me or from you.

I think the disagreement between God and Satan was because Satan did not want to meet up with God in Eden where he was told to insure that A & E sin, --- so that God could murder Jesus and Adam and Eve as he had planned to do even before the first sin.

God wanted to self-aggrandise himself and Satan thought that that was going too far, and saw his placement in Eden by God as a horrible sin on God's part.

Satan did not want to be seen helping God do such a vile thing to A & E or have the world think of him as evil as God, --- via his collusion with God in murder.

Satan had his pride and morals to think of and did not want God to murder Jesus and Adam and Eve just for God's own overinflated pride.

Rev 13; 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Note that God had decided to have Jesus murdered before the foundation of the earth and even the potential for sin.

Quite insane and immoral that, --- if any of my speculation is true.

Do you have a better speculation?

Is Satan showing a better morals position than God, --- in not wanting to tempt A & E, --- and set up Jesus to be sacrificed?

There is a hymn called Exsultet that calls Adam's sin necessary to God's plan and a happy fault that it happened.

Was Adams sin a necessary and a happy fault as the Exsultet hymn says?

Regards
DL

Posted on 31 Dec 2013 00:55:45 GMT
This is a very long-winded and overly-thought-out idea. You have performed so many circumnavigations and philosophical pirouettes, in your mental exercise, that the entire result certainly falls foul of Occam's Razor: i.e., there is a much simpler explanation for the problems than yours. The simpler solution is: that the story itself is faulty.

There is no answer as to why God created Satan, nor an answer as to why it put the deceiving serpent in the Garden of Eden alongside to gullible adult children. There is no answer to problems associated with God always having known what the course of events would be if he did allow the serpent to talk/lie to Adam and Eve before Adam and Eve understood what lying was. And no answer as to why Adam and Eve were kicked out for sinning, when in fact, the serpent itself was allowed there in the first place.

These problems exist because the Adam and Eve story as written in Genesis was not meant to be logical or rational, nor is it meant to stand up to today's philosophical and critical examination. It was written before all such things were held in wide esteem, and, was of course a re-write and a development of popular Mesopotamian myths, with no chance to re-write the story to make it make a whole lot of sense. In other words, it is an exercise in story-telling, not fact-telling, which is pretty much like the entirity of Genesis.

In short: don't try to rationalize aspects of a story that is itself deeply irrational, you'll strain your brain muscles!

I've waffled about this and other problems here: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_adamandeve.html

--
Vexen Crabtree

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 01:00:22 GMT
Heretic says:
Heretic says: So that you do not think that just because you change your focus to another thread does not mean that the questions you have failed to answer elsewhere have been forgotten.
======================================================================

glorify the LORD says: "no comment."

You are turning your religion into a joke, a bad one.

If you refuse to answer questions in a debate forum (and you have answered none) then by what right can you expect to get an answer to any question you ask.

===============================================
You have not replied to Helen yet about these

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9546513/Iran-resurrects-Salman-Rushdie-threat.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/07/terrorism.religion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8636455.stm

And by the way what about the abysmal behaviour towards our children by Muslims, what have you got to say about that?

Heretic

Posted on 31 Dec 2013 01:43:59 GMT
Er Heretic, I presume you're talking to the author of the O.P. ("Greatest I am"/DL), as I don't recognize any of what you're talking about and I don't know who Helen is!

And in other news... I can't believe someone has down-voted my post already - it was completely to the point and engaging with the topic at hand, and, whoever it was hasn't even had the courtesy to explain WHY?!!

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 01:58:32 GMT
Anita says:
As in you other news - wasn't me no-voting, but my best guess - some people may dislike self-promotion, even if it's a web page :)

(My best guess isn't correct though, I think. Someone simply disliked your post.)

And then, you see, your post isn't exactly engaging with the topic, it is rather cancelling the thread. You are basically saying there is nothing to talk about that

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 02:00:54 GMT
Dan Fante says:
There's no need to get vexed about it.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 02:03:07 GMT
I agree with the fiction angle.

Women and gays are still discriminated against and the story does need exposing.

Regards
DL

Posted on 31 Dec 2013 11:04:40 GMT
Acts5v29 says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 11:05:08 GMT
Heretic says:
Vexen Crabtree says: "Er Heretic, I presume you're talking to the author of the O.P. ("Greatest I am"/DL)"

This much is clear by the link at the top right of the post where it says "Your post, in reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 01:00:22 GMT". if you left click on the text "an earlier post" then you will see which post I am replying to.

Vexen Crabtree says: ", as I don't recognize any of what you're talking about and I don't know who Helen "is!

I understand your confusion as the author of the opening post has been avoiding answering these questions for some time now. That and the fact that he/she belongs to the vilest religion on planet earth means I will not drop this.

Heretic

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 11:24:47 GMT
HAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...

Moon UNIT

weeeeeeeeeeee

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 14:09:51 GMT
Last edited by the author on 31 Dec 2013 14:23:08 GMT
This site is not a church, it is a public forum. Just why you need this explained to you more than once is incomprehensible.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 14:13:19 GMT
Life and Humanity is beautiful and mysterious, and yet the Church always looks to deny pleasures and to sedate Humanity to the point of docility like any mindless animal.

You see a Vamndalism of Faith, we see most Faith as a Vandalism of reality.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 14:24:58 GMT
It really is astonishing that people can seriously suggest a persons beliefs must have automatic respect, no matter what they are.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 14:27:27 GMT
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 14:35:45 GMT
What a palpably absurd thing to say. I liked you better when you had no comment, and you made more sense.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 14:46:23 GMT
Because people are by nature sel;foish and sefl focussed, therefore they think that what they believe to be right anf truthful, must be right and truthful and other opinions invalid and muddled and misguided.

True wisdom is when one reliaes that they know so little and what they think they know can be changed by an emotion or a piece of knowledge previously denied.

In this I say that atheists and theists alike can be guilty of this lack of wisdom. There are many atheists who post merely to ridicule and cajole theists whilst offering little themsleves in the way of argument or debate. But the average standard of most theists on this forum weigh heavily on the more extreme side, making debate and ideas difficult to convey.

Why I dont post much on here, its like striking a match to light up the lightless deep places of the Earth. The light is precious, but fleeting and all too easily consumed by the darkness.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 14:50:53 GMT
Thats like saying that nothing has any truth in it at all. You cant have it both ways.

Truth is discovery and a willingess to change ones views as they discover more, most Faith relies on the opposite, to seed one truth in childhood and to prevent anything from shaking that truth in their hearts.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 14:57:56 GMT
**Truth is discovery and a willingess to change ones views as they discover more*8

The very method on which scientific empiricism is based, and in my opinion it's main strength, the rule that one must admit something can be wrong if the evidence proves it so, and the ability to renounce something as false no matter how much time and effort were dedicated to proving it, if the evidence requires it.

Posted on 31 Dec 2013 16:14:04 GMT
Last edited by the author on 31 Dec 2013 20:58:53 GMT
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 16:24:29 GMT
Last edited by the author on 31 Dec 2013 16:24:45 GMT
"Although the Genesis tale is both detailed and highly interesting; it is only one part of mankind's folk memory, passed down to us from the dawn of life."

Nowhere near, even human life is approx. 150000 years old, Genesis is nearer 2 to 3 thousand years old. It's interesting in the sense we can gauge how ignorant and superstitious people were compared to contemporary humans, and such a relatively short time ago. What's astonishing is people who have access to a free education today still believe it's literally true.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 16:50:23 GMT
Acts

Yes, vandals hate what they see as lies.
Like vigilantes, they think they do good and are mostly correct from what I recall.

Why else would they bother?

Regards
DL

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 16:58:35 GMT
Norm Deplume says:
The Vandals were Christians. There is a comparison to be drawn there.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 17:09:27 GMT
Last edited by the author on 31 Dec 2013 17:09:55 GMT
Obelix says:
"My own interpretation (for what it's worth?) follows:-

Originally no life whatever existed in this Solar System. Into this void came 'Creator Gods'. The ancient Sumerians named these 'Gods' the:- Anunnaki. Literally 'Those who from the Heavens (Deep Space?) came down'. For some now unremembered reason; the mission of these Creator Gods was to spread life through the Solar System. This they did, terraforming not one, but three planets; then existing within the Life Zone. These living planets Earth, Mars and Maldek (the Asteroid Belt/Ort Cloud) now being remembered in legend under various names including Heaven, Hell, Valhalla, Jotenheim, the Elysian Fields, Hades et al....

As part of this terra-formation programme, various slave/worker species were 'created', IE: genetically engineered. On Earth these slave/workers were Cro-Magnon humanity, created by genetically re-engineering the most promising species of ape, increasing intelligence, redesigning the speech/vocal mechanisms etc.....

This action may have broken some wider 'Law' of which we today are unaware of, because it certainly caused deep division with the 'Gods', with some suggesting that mankind should be exterminated, while others disagreed, inspiring humanity to revolt by explaining the power of knowledge:-

"And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever (Genesis 3:22)."

The Bible record passes over this critical period in just a few lines, but the Sanskrit Rig Veda goes into very much more detail. Tell how the war was fought both in the Heavens and upon Earth, with great cities being incinerated and vast regions being turned to waste. Ultimately the outcome was decided by a great mountain (asteroid?) being hurled down upon the Gods, which destroyed both them and their world (Maldek, now the Asteroid Belt?).

Mankind had suffered dreadfully in all this however, the planet's climate had altered, the sea levels had risen massively (the end of the Ice Age?), sickness/disease (result of germ warfare?) had become endemic, while lifespans were massively reduced. Much precious knowledge had also been irretrievably lost, with even those 'Gods' who had lead/directed humanities battle for freedom eventually becoming sick twisted mutants before they died (According to Greek legend, the part-man/part goat Pan was the last to die; aged some 5,300yrs of age)."

Anyone ask you for your 'interpretation'?

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2013 17:16:11 GMT
Last edited by the author on 31 Dec 2013 17:16:27 GMT
Why don't you try thinking for yourself Ryan?

Who knows, with a teacher's help, you might become quite good at it?

Posted on 31 Dec 2013 18:03:15 GMT
Last edited by the author on 31 Dec 2013 18:03:36 GMT
Obelix says:
Think you'll find the answer you were looking for was...

...'no'.
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  20
Total posts:  125
Initial post:  5 Nov 2013
Latest post:  10 Jan 2014

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