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are the premise that we evolved from apes, and the end result of that premise, contradictory? or not?


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Showing 1-25 of 184 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 13 Jan 2013 15:30:01 GMT
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Posted on 13 Jan 2013 16:08:09 GMT
Fact: humanity evolved from apes. Commentary and musing is almost comically irrelevant.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 16:15:17 GMT
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Posted on 13 Jan 2013 16:26:54 GMT
Last edited by the author on 13 Jan 2013 16:28:28 GMT
Going purely by previous experience on Amazon religion forum, the following counter-argument is likely going to be along the lines of "homosexuals and women need protection from that wicked, nefarious, stone-age, insidious, abominable, odious specter called religion". In other words: "as long as gays and women are preserved, everyone else can basically go get stuffed. And woe to those who fall behind in the evolutionary ladder around here! woe to the stranger! You want me to give you some rules? The only rules are [strictly] *no religion* - and a strict adherence to the status quo! Servitude! Yield, you odious alien!".

Posted on 13 Jan 2013 16:28:58 GMT
[Deleted by Amazon on 13 Jan 2013 21:08:14 GMT]

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 16:30:25 GMT
Last edited by the author on 13 Jan 2013 16:32:25 GMT
The emphasis of my pondering, is not on that beginning premise of evolution (that we came from apes), but rather, on the end results, and present-day playing-out of the doctrine. The results of it. A thing which evolutionists evidently pay very little heed to. All caught up in reveling in the gracefulness of the ape in the zoo.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 17:03:04 GMT
[Deleted by Amazon on 13 Jan 2013 21:08:08 GMT]

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 18:36:11 GMT
K. Hoyles says:
Extraordinary.

Posted on 13 Jan 2013 18:45:24 GMT
Charlieost says:
Hi GtheL. Always interesting to read your musings. I recommend that you read this book The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life by Prof Richard Dawkins in which the good professor takes a journey backward in time to the origins of most species including ours.

Perhaps some of the answers that you seek will be made apparent. Perhaps not.

I provide a link (not the so called missing one of course).
The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life

Perhaps if you read this then your search for truth will be over. Perhaps not. C

Posted on 13 Jan 2013 19:11:29 GMT
Spin says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 19:15:25 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 19:23:00 GMT
Last edited by the author on 13 Jan 2013 19:23:36 GMT
Spin says:
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Posted on 13 Jan 2013 20:09:39 GMT
Spin says:
I await an explanation from Creationists and anti-evolutionists as to the use of male nipples...=)

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 20:25:20 GMT
What is the use of gay sex?

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 20:25:26 GMT
Tom M says:
Hi GTL

Interesting post. I have read a fair little bit on evolutionary theory and like virtually all non-fundamentalists, find it to be a very good theory as far as it goes, especially since the seminal work (pun intended) of Fr Mendel and the marvelous developments that have occurred in genetics, i.e. mapping the human genome and related advancements.

Saint Augustine suggested that life was a mystery rooted in processes along evolutionary lines in the 4th century, and Darwin actually just provided interesting field arguments to support ideas that existed in the culture.

Existence only makes sense within theism as we see from the very anthropic nature of the universe as Penrose presents it and one has to bury one's head in denial to avoid the Intelligence of the ordering principle at the core of existence and the ascent of life.

I was golfing in Florida.... actually.. . what I was doing could hardly be called golfing... ugh..... I stank...... and on one particularly wonderful day my usual golf buddy and I were teamed up by the starter with a terrific couple of guys, a great big black guy and an older guy , originally Irish and from Austrailia.

Mostly we laughed our faces off at jokes of every description, particularly from the Irish - Aussie -American who had accents down like I'd never heard and who had an off colour (pun intended) joke for every occasion that had us falling over as he hacked our way around followed by a back-hoe.

He turned out to be a phd of biology and when we weren't falling down from bad jokes and worse golf shots, we talked about Pere Teilhard de Chardin and his work, The Phenomenon of Man as well as more recent works like "A Third Window" and Gilson's classic, From Aristotle to Darwin.

He was pretty enthused as it's very difficult to deny the ascendence of complexity and consciousness in the rise of ife on our planet and in fact that we find that evolutionary science cannot even be spoken about coherently without slipping in 'teleological' or purposeful terminology.

As Dawkins states, the univers looks like its designed. And of course he has no evidence at all that it is not and suffers from the educational and closed-minded cultural defensiveness so typical of most scientists.

Evolutionary science shows us how intelligent life, in its material elements anyway, emerged from the dust, stardust in fact.

Its an astounding and humbling story bespeaking a wondrous act of creative Intelligence, but one that many people are blinded to because of misfortunate elements in their educations, and particularly the 'official story' of philosophical mechanism, matter and motion, that their teachers had enforced upon them.

Ockham, in the 14 hundreds, then Hume, Russell et al. Kant's idealism., positivism, which is the intellectual disease on this forum, but which has been displaced by postmodern know-nothingism. The last bust stop on the atheistic materialist line.

What I am gettting at here GTL, is that I quite understand your rejection of evolutionary science, even though the science itself, is, as best I can tell along with experts much more conversant with it, is very good.

What you and a huge number of Americans in particlar are rejecting, is not the evolutionary science, but rather the profoundly stupid mechanistic idiot worldview of classical materialism and mechanistic philosophy in which the good science is ensnared.

You and I could hardly present informed critiques of evolutionary science, though I don't think its particularly difficult to express generally, but it is hardly our task to perform such critiques.

Where you are keenly on top of what's happening however, is your apprehension of the really stupid worldview; the dehumanizing, valueless , purposeless, and profoundly unintelligent and worthless worldview that bogus thinkers like Dawkins and some others stupidly tack on to otherwise good science in profound ignorance of what they are doing.

Having read his wonderfully stupid book, TGD, which will in centuries hence be singled out along with Hawking's astoundingly ridiculous, "The Grand Design" as absolutely perfect examples of collections of material facts utterly devoid of an intelligent overview and grasp, these poor men , with there deeply impoverished educations steeped in all the incoherent stupidities of materialism are simply profoundly blind to the universe around them and the self-revelation of God within nature.

Even more generally in the realm of physics, we have Smith's The Quantum Enigma: Finding the Hidden Key which anyone who hopes ever even to understand what physics is and how its been railroaded since Descartes. A good chum of mine, a talented tennis buddy and physics grad is an excellent example , very , very common in physicits. He has virtually no idea what physics is.

I'll repeat that. He has virtually no idea at all what physics is. The most obvious points dealing with the actual corporeal world of our sense experience vs the constructed physical edifice of "physics", is utterly lost on him as Anthony Rizzi details so nicely in The Science Before Science: A Guide to Thinking in the 21st Century.

THe great tragedy is that the universe that is revealed, the evolution and rise of consciouness and transcendent reality as advanced by religious and informed (pun intended) philosophical thought is one of immanent magnificence and love.

We all experience those unforgettable moments of love and life, say at first love or the deep joy of a mother or father, at the wonder of their natural love giving life, and it is this that is often actively and willfully ignored , usually in the addiction to some smaller good, some using ambition.

So .. in closing, I understand your questioning those who would seek to deny the human and transcendent properties of free will and our ability to apprehend the non-material ordering of our world towards final causes, or further actualizations of perfect being in our natural sciences.

They ignore the most obvious limits of natural science and as we see with the above wonderful examples of Dawkins and Hawking, are sloshing around in a whirlpool of confusion holding up dripping arms of thought connected to no wider body in which they actually exist.

So by all means laugh heartily at these revered saints of the incognozi, and continue to ignore their vacuous claims, but if you feel the impulse, enjoy perhaps some of the authors I have recommended who will point out the source and the cure for the ignorance, and mind-boggling arrogance of these intellectual puppies as delineated so nicely and completely in The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism.

That everyday people are so afraid, and timorous, and desperately afraid not to stand out independently of the crowd is the wonderful point made by the tale of the emperor's new clothes.

This great fear, something we see manifested here with the really pathetic little troupe of minions who put all the negative votes on posts from theists is itself a signpost and testimony to people's actual ability to live a whole life desperately afraid of actually discovering the truth about themselves and life.

Cheers GTL and Happy New Year

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 20:26:19 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 20:31:32 GMT
Spin says:
Simon: No. I read and question instead of making speculative claims I cannot support, defend or substantiate. This is not to say I am always right, but at least I understand what is being discussed and can defend or refute a proposition. Unlike some..

Posted on 13 Jan 2013 20:34:00 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 20:43:40 GMT
Spin says:
Simon: Are you questioning where "organs" come from? Really? Have you not noticed the variety of life around you? No, I guess not...

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 20:44:22 GMT
Spin says:
Simon: PS; If you are correct, explain the use of male nipples.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 21:10:13 GMT
Drew Jones says:
"Evolutionary science shows us how intelligent life, in its material elements anyway, emerged from the dust, stardust in fact."
You mean dustdidit?

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 21:10:56 GMT
Spin...unlike you I know nothing...those who know don't speak...those who speak don't know....find your place spinny...

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Jan 2013 21:15:24 GMT
Spin says:
Simon: If, as you admit, you know nothing, not only is it unwise to engage in conversation with folk who do know, but it is sheer egoism to tell those that know that you know more than they do. God help your family and employees..

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jan 2013 05:03:36 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jan 2013 12:27:35 GMT
G. Heron says:
Tom M

"He was pretty enthused as it's very difficult to deny the ascendence of complexity and consciousness in the rise of ife on our planet"

Start with something very simple and make changes to it, it is not surprising if you end up moving in the direction of increased complexity. Try standing at the north pole and then going for a walk without going south.
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  21
Total posts:  184
Initial post:  13 Jan 2013
Latest post:  23 Jan 2013

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