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What would change your mind?

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Initial post: 10 May 2012 21:55:19 BDT

Mr. Bde Wall says:

I imagine at some point this has come up before, but I thought it would be an interesting conversation starter to think over what kind of evidence, experience or reasoning would be necessary for a change in your own views on the truth content of theism.

This question is open to all, whatever your current stance. You might have a strong conviction that God exists, a slight inkling, one way or the other, no idea at all, or perhaps a fairly strong belief that no such being exists.

I'm asking this partly out of interest, but also as a means of working out the answer myself. I'm not really sure what could happen which would sway me to belief. That's not to say I am unswayable by any evidence, experience or reason based argument - just that I don't know what kind of form it would need to take.

I look forward to your input,

as always, much peace from me,

Ben

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Posted on 10 May 2012 23:08:20 BDT
Last edited by the author on 10 May 2012 23:08:46 BDT

R. Kroell says:

What do you want to believe?
I was brought up believing in the (catholic) teaching of God and Jesus.
During the time I found myself asking some many questions about the God I should believe in, and came to the conclusion that nod "God" or "Gods" exist.
I was not only questioning the bible in its literally means, but also the conducts of the people who claim the Bible is always right and so the actions based on the book.
I came to the conclusion that gods are totally imaginary, and poeple uses Gods to rule over people.
For example: In the USA religious people demand freedom of religion, and wnat to establish a christian country, that will surpress the freedom of others.

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Posted on 11 May 2012 15:55:42 BDT

J.Yasimoto says:

If I was granted the power to change water into wine, well... that would seal the deal for me.

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In reply to an earlier post on 11 May 2012 15:58:16 BDT

Jim Guest says:

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In reply to an earlier post on 11 May 2012 16:46:03 BDT
Last edited by the author on 11 May 2012 16:46:29 BDT

Mr. Bde Wall says:

Hi R. Kroell,

"What do you want to believe?"

Well, whatever's closest to the truth. But that's not really relevant to what I'm asking. I'm interested in what *would* change your viewpoint from what it currently is, rather than what you would like to believe. So far you've told us what you used to believe and what changed your mind. Fair enough, and interesting. But what I'm asking is what would change you from your current viewpoint?

Many thanks,

Ben

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In reply to an earlier post on 11 May 2012 19:07:44 BDT

Spin says:

Bde: Even if this world was a paradise, and natural phenomena were everyday countered by miracles,I still would not believe the Theist argument since even a perfect world does not logically lead to the conclusion that a deity exists.

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In reply to an earlier post on 11 May 2012 20:02:34 BDT

Tom C says:

Lottery win for me please.

Give me a 100 ft yacht and an apartment in St Tropez, and Lord, Im a believer !!!

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 13:47:27 BDT

Reverend A Theist says:

If I was to live my life based on a God who wanted me to live it in a certain way I would want to meet him first and have him convince me.
Without that there is no way I would waste my one life because if you don't meet him first hand then all you are doing is relying on another mans interpretation of scripture or just another mans delusion.
When people say they have faith - all they have faith in is another man's interpretation of the book they're basing their life on which is a waste because you're not thinking for yourself.
If I was to devote my life to someone/thing I would need much more proof than just "faith". In all other aspects of life I require evidence and proof (of the reality around me) and live none of it based on faith so why should God need special pleading? Noone anywhere has any such proof other than personal revelation which is only evidence to themselves not me. God does not reveal himself because he chooses not to is the same as God does not exist. There are a myriad of things God could do to make ALL atheists change their minds simoultaneously but he has failed so far. God only exists in a theists mind and that is not reality for me.

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 14:10:12 BDT

Jim Guest says:

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 16:05:03 BDT

Reverend A Theist says:

"The majority of people who follow Christ do so because of another who follows Christ."

The majority of people who follow [any religion] do so because of another who follows [that religion].
And children who follow their parents religion are therefore indoctrinated [brainwashed].
How can you convert someone you don't know as they do not see the example you have made of your life.

"The proof of the pudding. "

Is in the eating. Your pudding has no base and is tasteless.

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 16:17:59 BDT

Jim Guest says:

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 16:57:07 BDT

Tom M says:

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hi ben

For me, absolutley everything points very clearly to everything being not just mindless matter, which is completely unsupportable...unless one has been Hume-anized and lost one's wits and nothing is defensible.

I frankly am enthralled by atheism as it presents itself. It literally has nothing to say about anything..nothing coherent anyway and all of the scientific views that used to at least make a scientific case barely plausible were dashed and the tables reversed with big bang cosmology.

Add the finiteness of any expanding universe(s) requiring a transcendent cause; and the fact that we live in a low entropyuniverse of staggering improbability that has steadily created and developed higher forms of life and moral intelligence and atheism frankly looks like the simple ignorance and prejudice it is.

R Kroell above , for instance reads the bible as if God is ordering Jews to go out and slaughter half the planet, and that he's supposed to believe that donkeys talk. He should try reading the bible as an adult sometime and if he wants to reject a religious understanding he should realize that he is rejecting his own foolish and almost childish unsderstandings, not the teaching or understanding of the Catholic church, home to some of the best minds in human history.

But this is just symptomatic of what supposedly passes for rationality here. The so-called 'new' atheists..all primed up with laughable ignorance by the 4 headless horsemen of atheism, Dawkins et al are are frankly clowns.

They indeed represent the lunatic fringe of world opinion and like Ian Maxwell for instance don't believe they have the free will to say they don't believe they have free will to hold anything and yet still want to come out to play with the adults and tell us how naive Aristotle was..the "first scientist.'

Ben..you seem a very nice and intelligent man. Put aside the matter of religion for a moment and despite its clear and very funny polemical style, invest a few 'quid' as you 'blokes' call them in 'Feser's book.

Its is a short course in the history of western thought and it well show you just how out to lunch modern presuppositions are about the big questions like meaning and purpose; the very things you seek to discuss.

If you really want to get into the head on brilliance of western thought in its roots, then Clarke's book is sheer genius.

Recognizing you as a man of integrity and humilitity I am prepared to make you an offer.

Get either or both (highly recommended) of these books and first of all, your family, children and friends will recognize their deepest intellectual needs being fulfilled in you..something we owe each other.

Secondly you will understand why Ian, who is no doubt a very competent scientific thinker but who has the philosophical acumen of a garden gnome is doomed to go to the grave still spinning in the same circle unless he confronts the epistemic swamp he swims in.

Thirdly you will see that our natural apprehension of the wonders of evolution, life itself, our moral consiousness and desire to love and be loved are manifest symptoms of our ultimate cause and purpose in the final cause as Aristotle argued and as scholastic philosophers who gave us the first universities and mondern science continue to proclaim.

You will know deep intellectual satisfaction. Moral happiness for you are a creature designed to know and you cannot be happy until you do.

Don't worry about 'religion'. I recognize and you do too that self-sacrificing love is the epitome of love as we understand it, in the soldier who lays down his life, or the mother who sacrifices her day to love her children, or in the mineworker or scholar.

If I were looking for some "Godlike" thing to have revealed himself..and of course the cause of persons must be a person... I would give a good look to the revelation of Christ and those who claim to be his church.

But don't put the cart before the horse. Adress the key metaphysical issues, and if people tell you not to pay attention to metaphysics , remind them that they are doing exactly that, very, very blindly and badly, when they offer such metaphysical idiocy.

F|ind out why people call Arisotle the greatest mind ever and why no-one says that about any modern philosopher.

The deal is..I will buy the books back from you if they don't live up to my claims. You really do owe it to yourself to address these issues head on with the best contemporary insights of scholars...and I guarantee you will be delighted.

The One and the Many: A Contemporary Thomistic Metaphysics

The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism

Cheers Ben..it's a beautiful day today

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 17:01:58 BDT

R. Kroell says:

What do you mean by viewpoint?
I am constantly changing my viewpoint. It depends on what new information come up. If I think this new information is vital and based on evidence, I will change my viewpoint.
For example: For many years I saw the end of the dinosuars as the direct result of that KT-Event. Then new information arrived, like "twisted" ammonites, Deccan Volcanics, atmospheric changes etc. I came to the conclusion that the age, better, wolrd of dinosaurs was already into a decline, and the impact was the nail to the coffin.

If you ask me what would make me change from an atheist into a true christian believer? Well, I have to see some of the wonders that took place in the Bible tale for my self, today. Why should god not be as present today as he was 3000 years ago? Not some "behind the curtain" wonders that Anita Meyer is telling about.

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 17:23:35 BDT

R. Kroell says:

"R Kroell above , for instance reads the bible as if God is ordering Jews to go out and slaughter half the planet, and that he's supposed to believe that donkeys talk. He should try reading the bible as an adult sometime and if he wants to reject a religious understanding he should realize that he is rejecting his own foolish and almost childish unsderstandings, not the teaching or understanding of the Catholic church, home to some of the best minds in human history."

I read the bible like a book. letters and words and sentences, that have something to say.
"This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it's OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself."

If I read this in the bible: "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)", the meaning is very clear. There is no room for personal interpretation.

Or this: "Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)"

Those are only two of many examples of repulsive moral taught in the bible. So why does the Catholic Church itself not reject thos parts in hte bible?

The conduct of christians like you assured me that being an atheist is the best way.

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 18:06:02 BDT

Reverend A Theist says:

"Children may follow any religion entirely of their own free will, just as adults may. Christians, parents or not, do everything to prevent people from joining them unless and until they have shown suitable personal understanding and personal qualities."

How many Christians are there in Iraq? Some but the overwhelming majority is Muslim.
How many Muslims are there in south USA? Some but the overwhelming majority is Christian.
How many Christians/Jews/Muslims do you know of that send their children to all different churches so they can make up their own mind? Most of them even send their children to thier own religions school. You can't get much more devisive than that. If you believe children are free to exercise their free-will when it comes to religion you are, once again, deluded.
And remember, children cannot really make up their mind about these things until they are in their teens. So there should be NO pre-teen children in church at all.
It is you who are contemptible for advocating child abuse in the disguise of religion and then claiming children have free will.
It is theists like yourself who will eventually condemn religion.

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 18:11:50 BDT

Jim Guest says:

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 18:48:49 BDT

Reverend A Theist says:

Are you human?

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 18:54:56 BDT

Pendragon says:

More likely to be Romulan.

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 22:29:58 BDT

Mr. W. D. Burchell says:

RAT,

Why are you so sure that "When people say they have faith - all they have faith in is another man's interpretation of the book they're basing their life on", Why do you not think that they too have met God first and been convinced by him?

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 23:22:16 BDT

Jim Guest says:

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In reply to an earlier post on 12 May 2012 23:24:33 BDT

Jim Guest says:

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In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2012 00:14:07 BDT

Pendragon says:

Your choice. Green Goblin or Hulk.

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In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2012 00:14:31 BDT

Pendragon says:

Better than you, then.

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In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2012 06:12:09 BDT

Sam Hunter says:

She-Hulk. She's funnier.

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In reply to an earlier post on 13 May 2012 10:41:13 BDT
Last edited by the author on 13 May 2012 10:44:48 BDT

Reverend A Theist says:

Wayne,

Because faith is defined as believing in God or the doctrines of religion based on personal revelation rather than logical proof or evidence.
If anyone has actually met God or has material proof he exists they don't have faith - they KNOW.
What evidence do you have that you met God? None I'll guess. So it is a personal thing - unfortunately that does not make it real because noone else can experience what you did. Therefore you require "faith" which is simply wishful thinking. You could also claim to have met Napoleon Bonaparte and spoken to him, however this may lead to a visit to the doctor. People who talk to invisible friends could be labelled insane if they choose to obey or act on the words they assume come from them. Is there a difference? We try to encourage children to grow out of having invisible friends because we think it is not healthy. Why? Because we want them to interact with the real world.

Reason is the enemy of faith. Says it all really.
If you are rational, you view the world using reason and facts, rather than relying on dogma, spiritual leaders or religious doctrine. Which is where we began. Faith comes from other peoples interpretations which impress you and cause you to follow a path which you think you began yourself.

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Discussion in: religion discussion forum

Participants: 32

Total posts: 214

Initial post: 10 May 2012

Latest post: 24 May 2012

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