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Apocrypha Books


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Initial post: 23 Jun 2012 15:18:35 BDT
Last edited by the author on 24 Jun 2012 22:18:23 BDT
Lela says:
For open minded people, who can read everything without believing everything, but are able to use their mind and hearts to discover the truth, which can be hidden everywhere...

Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the
keys of Knowledge and hidden them. They themselves have not
entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You,
however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm

Posted on 23 Jun 2012 22:07:33 BDT
light says:
Hi Lela,

Very good point you make! It's a wise idea to have a large assortment of reading material but equally important to be able to determine what is true and what it not.

The verse you quoted is found in Thomas saying 39 which did "not" make it into the bible:

Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to," (Thomas 39).

A similar verse is found in Luke 11:52 which "did" make it into the bible.

"Woe unto you, lawyers! for you have taken away the key of knowledge: you have not entered in yourselves, and them that were entering in you hindered," (Luke 11:52).

Another similar verse is found in Matthew 23:14 which "did" make it into the bible:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Parisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." (Matthew 23:14)

In Matthew 23 13-34 Jesus gives the religious leaders of his time a good talking to, he really tells them off, he is sick of hypocrisy and tries very hard to talk about the keys to the kingdom of god. Jesus makes it very clear that it is not only the outer works of good deeds which prepare oneself for the kingdom but also to practice justice, mercy and faithfulness, they go hand in hand. It is of no value to wash the outside of a cup but to allow the inside to be full of filth., first of all clean the inside then the outside will be clean as well. It is pointless to strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. It is worthless to appear righteous on the outside while on the inside be full of wickedness and hypocrisy.

Jesus speaks of the keys and mysteries to his inner circle of disciples the rest he speaks to in parables.

The keys of heaven are found in all religions, and you can spot them by comparing what they each say. They keys/gnosis are mixed amongst doctrine and scripture, so one must read and discern with the careful inspection of an archeologist.

Posted on 23 Jun 2012 22:16:21 BDT
gille liath says:
Well personally, after careful study of quite a few supposedly esoteric books: my considered conclusion is that it's all utter cobblers.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 22:39:36 BDT
light says:
It's utter cobblers to you because it does not hold your interest, if it held your interest you would dig deeper.

God's word in scripture/esoteric writings are written in such a way that those who are interested will find what they are looking for "if" they continue to seek. The keys of wisdom, understanding and knowledge are hidden amongst the rubble, or utter cobblers as you call it.

God's words are the keys to the kingdom of heaven but one must dig through the the words in scripture to determine which words are god's words and which ones are mans's words, which were in effect in the time of the writings and according to the culture of the writer. If one follows god's words there are promises made of guidance and protection. Many times in the bible the words, "if" and "then" are written.

Proverbs 2:12-"My son, "if" you accept my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and appying your heart to understanding, and "if" you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, "then" you will understand the fear of the lord "and find" the knowledge of god. For the Lord gives wisdom, and from his mouth, (his words), come knowledge and understanding. He holds victory in store for the upright, he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless, for he guards the course of the just and protects the way of his faithful ones. "Then" you will understand what is right and just and fair, every good path. For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant for your soul. Discretion will protect you, and understanding will guard you. Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men."

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 22:44:50 BDT
Last edited by the author on 23 Jun 2012 22:58:00 BDT
gille liath says:
"It's utter cobblers to you because it does not hold your interest, if it held your interest you would dig deeper."

No, you're mistaken; it did hold my interest, I did dig deeper, and so I feel I know what i'm talking about when I say it's a load of rubbish.

That's if - and here we are in a morass of elusive hints and vagueness already - you and Lela are claiming that there's some other 'hidden' meaning to the Bible and other texts, which is only accessible if someone gives you the 'key'.

Take the texts you mention in your first post. You seem to be implying that they refer to this type of hidden knowledge; why should they have any meaning other than the obvious, ie that the Pharisees had become obsessed with the letter of the Law at the expense of its spirit?

Or the quotation from Proverbs - what makes you think it means anything other than ordinary, everyday wisdom (which, God knows, is a rare enough commodity)?

If on the other hand you're simply saying you should sift what you read - of course I agree with that, as any sane person would. But just say so in plain English! :)

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 23:00:00 BDT
Last edited by the author on 23 Jun 2012 23:51:14 BDT
light says:
gille,

"No, you're mistaken; it did hold my interest, I did dig deeper, and so I feel I know what i'm talking about when I say it's a load of rubbish.

I notice that you wrote, "it 'did' hold your interest" and " I 'did' dig", as in past tense, so you stopped because now you feel you know what your'e talking about.

Matthew 7:7-8, "Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

.

Jesus encourages perseverance in prayer. The tense of the Greek verb in v8 designates continued action. This means that we must keep on asking, seeking and knocking.

When someone is ready for more they will ask. Not everyone needs to understand the workings of a car engine to be able to drive a car, right?

"That's if - and here we are in a morass of elusive hints and vagueness already - you and Lela are claiming that there's some other 'hidden' meaning to the Bible and other texts, which is only accessible if someone gives you the 'key'."

The keys are hidden because they can be used to control people, that is written in the bible and explained by Jesus, so they only available to those who are diligently digging and searching to reveal an inner-transformation/spirituality.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 23:09:03 BDT
light says:
gille,

You know that god's ways are higher than man's ways, and god's thoughts are higher than man's thoughts so yes, man has a degree of wisdom, understanding and knowledge but if a person digs deeper and cleaves to god's words then god "gives" them, from his mouth, his wisdom, understanding and knowledge.

Jesus said that man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of god.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 23:09:50 BDT
gille liath says:
Again, I disagree; no more digging for me; I'm looking for the 'up' elevator, not the 'down' one (I should say 'lift', but it doesn't sound quite right). Or to take my own advice and use plain English: you don't learn anything of use by picking over ancient texts looking for hidden meanings, which has nothing to do with genuine spiritual seeking. 'Perseverance in prayer' is a different thing entirely, and has nothing to do with interpretation.

And I can't help but notice you haven't answered my questions.

But, look: it ain't worth falling out over. We'll have to agree to differ on this one.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 23:10:17 BDT
gille liath says:
Yes.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 23:11:53 BDT
Last edited by the author on 23 Jun 2012 23:13:00 BDT
light says:
I'm sorry which questions, I thought I did answer what you asked.

I put genuine spiritual seeking first, before any doctrine.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 23:14:28 BDT
Last edited by the author on 23 Jun 2012 23:32:37 BDT
gille liath says:
Well, your idea of it seems to be a little different from mine. IMHO there's no use in looking for hidden meanings: the Gospel, taken at face value, is already as high and as difficult a teaching as you could find. There's not much you could usefully add, and certainly no esoteric short cuts you can take. I think this stuff is really a distraction, not an aid.

Posted on 23 Jun 2012 23:31:00 BDT
Last edited by the author on 23 Jun 2012 23:35:29 BDT
light says:
gille,

2 verses that I keep in my mind to help me along the way are:

John 4:23-24, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

And the other one I posted previously Matthew 7:7-8. Keep seeking, asking and knocking.

I do not allow myself to get stuck in ancient writings, I read them and then I update them to make it relevant to today's living.

Posted on 23 Jun 2012 23:37:02 BDT
gille liath says:
'You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children'. Mt 11:25

Night. ;)

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 23:40:56 BDT
light says:
gille,

You are right in saying, "There are no short esoteric cuts."

The esoteric meaning is not everyone's bag. I'm interested in it because I want to understand the why and how, I believe that if people were to listen to the words that Jesus said and put them into practice there would be no need to look any further into esoteric messages.

Some people are content to listen to the radio and others need to take it apart to see and understand how it works.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 23:43:43 BDT
Last edited by the author on 23 Jun 2012 23:58:04 BDT
light says:
night :D

You'll see this in the morning, "I agree."

Jesus gives his lessons in the form of parables so that anyone, even the uneducated and children can live by them, a person doesn't have to be scholarly to understand a parable about right living. As Jesus mentioned the Pharaisees, the learned, abused the keys and became hypocrites.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 16:48:36 BDT
There are a number of Bibles with study notes, but these are just meant to provide additional background information, not to be esoteric as such. However it's difficult to make a clear distinction perhaps.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 19:58:17 BDT
gille liath says:
Yeah, after 16 posts I'm still not sure what Lela and light are talking about - whether they are referring to something beyond face value or not. In my experience that's what usually happens as soon as you talk about the truth being 'hidden'.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 21:04:02 BDT
Last edited by the author on 24 Jun 2012 21:04:48 BDT
Lela says:
Hello gille liath

I put a reference to a website with collections of Books that are not known to everyone, unless we learn about them by hazard (simple people, not the people who research and study these subjects). I just discovered them, and have not had the time to read them all. Have only read the Gospel of Mary and a part of that of Thomas so far.

Am reading your comment on how you conclude that they are utter coblers after having read them.
Therefore I am curious to know:
- you had read them before, or after seeing this post (in which case Bravo for being such a fast reader)
- are you religious and these books are against your beliefs?
- are you atheist and everything related to old Scriptures is utter cobler?

To me, old Books are a historical evidence of the Human Expression of Thought and Spirit throughout history of mankind. Some humans have probably talked nonsense, and some had very interesting things to say. Unless I read things myself, I will never learn the trueths that humans have discovered so far and have tried to express in writing.
The Bible includes the Books that have been agreed and decided by Humans to be included in the Bible.
Today, we have the opportunity to also read what has been left out, and wonder why?

For example: I am quite surprised to read the Gospel of Mary, as it is different from the rest of the other Gospels.
One possible reason that it did not become part of the Bible is because it was written by woman, and around year 500 the woman was still seen as inferior to men.
I can see other possible reasons too, but cannot stop reading it just because the religious authorities decided "it was not inspired by God, or written under the Holly Spirit etc"... that decision I woud rather make it by myself.
If you cannot understand that sometimes the trueth is hidden, than all I can say that you are very lucky that all the trueths have been revealed to you!

Chapter 5
1) But they were grieved. They wept greatly, saying, How shall we go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If they did not spare Him, how will they spare us?
2) Then Mary stood up, greeted them all, and said to her brethren, Do not weep and do not grieve nor be irresolute, for His grace will be entirely with you and will protect you.
3) But rather, let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into Men.
4) When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the Savior.
5) Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman.
6) Tell us the words of the Savior which you remember which you know, but we do not, nor have we heard them.
7) Mary answered and said, What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you.
8) And she began to speak to them these words: I, she said, I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to Him, Lord I saw you today in a vision. He answered and said to me,
9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure.
10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?
11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision and it is [...]
(pages 11 - 14 are missing from the manuscript)

Chapter 9
1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.
2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.
3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.
4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?
5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?
6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.
7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.
8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.
9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.
10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.

Posted on 24 Jun 2012 21:13:20 BDT
Last edited by the author on 24 Jun 2012 21:13:59 BDT
gille liath says:
- you had read them before, or after seeing this post (in which case Bravo for being such a fast reader)

Obviously the former. But I wasn't thinking specifically of apocryphal 'Bible' books.

- are you religious and these books are against your beliefs?

I didn't know which books you were referring to, so I don't know whether they're against my beliefs. That's not the reason I don't believe in the esoteric.

- are you atheist and everything related to old Scriptures is utter cobler?

Cobler? No.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with reading old texts. The danger comes in thinking that they 'must' be the true stuff, whilst the texts included in the Bible must be some kind of conspiracy or cover-up.

I'm still struggling to understand, though, what you're getting at. It now sounds as though when you say 'hidden' you mean simply 'censored' rather than esoteric.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 21:36:57 BDT
Lela says:
"IMHO there's no use in looking for hidden meanings: the Gospel, taken at face value, is already as high and as difficult a teaching as you could find."

And what is the most important thing you have learned from the Gospel?

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 21:42:13 BDT
Lela says:
"There's not necessarily anything wrong with reading old texts. The danger comes in thinking that they 'must' be the true stuff, whilst the texts included in the Bible must be some kind of conspiracy or cover-up."

No, I would not say that. After all, they are all similiar, they send the same messages of love and forgiveness, and seeing others as yourself.
However, this particular gospel of Mary has spiritual ideas that are not included anywhere else. It is a shame is not complete.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 21:44:55 BDT
gille liath says:
"And what is the most important thing you have learned from the Gospel?"

Never on a first date... ;)

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 21:51:49 BDT
Lela says:
"I'm still struggling to understand, though, what you're getting at. It now sounds as though when you say 'hidden' you mean simply 'censored' rather than esoteric."

I never used the word esoteric. And I do not mean censored either, because the trueth cannot be censored.
When people feel they know the trueth about something, anything, they normally try to overcome censorship and find ways to express it so that this trueth one day comes to light, sometimes for high purposes people are even prepared to risk their lives ...
That's why I used the word "hidden".

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 21:56:43 BDT
Last edited by the author on 24 Jun 2012 21:59:03 BDT
gille liath says:
Well, in my book it's the wrong word, suggesting the deliberate concealment of something of value - rather than something simply being discarded because it is thought to be inappropriate or just not up to scratch.

And btw the word is 'truth'. Sorry, but that's been bugging me throughout the thread.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 22:51:16 BDT
Pendragon says:
Hi Lela

"shame is not complete". Couldn't agree more. It is a very interesting read, about one of the NT's most interesting characters.
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Initial post:  23 Jun 2012
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