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Why DO so many atheists pile (often aggressively) onto the religion forum?


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In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 14:50:44 BDT
[Deleted by Amazon on 31 Mar 2013 15:06:32 BDT]

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 14:54:06 BDT
Drew Jones says:
"I don't know anybody who believes that the belief that God, or gods, exists thereby improves morals or values."
There's B.C., Paul Davidson, 'Tom', William Lane Craig, Ray Comfort, last Pope - just off the top of my head.

"As to the origins of value this remains a profoundly complex question even if one believes in God."
Have you heard/read these guys?

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 14:55:21 BDT
I don't know. I've never had a religious experience. But I know that people who have them (or claim to have them) seem to have a conviction that is stronger than any belief derived from observation, induction, deduction or reading a book by Richard Dawkins.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 14:55:30 BDT
Last edited by the author on 31 Mar 2013 15:00:28 BDT
T. GREEN says:
I do not think you are supposed to even try to Spin. If you believe in God then you accept that he/she/it has a direct input into your life, and if not then you assume he/she/it does not.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:01:05 BDT
Spin says:
Anthony: It depends on what one considers to be a "religious experience" One can survive open heart surgery and think it was Gods will or one can win the lottery and think God favours you. In my opinion, a "religious experience" is not something physical or reasoned; it is an awareness, a realisation that supercedes all thoughts of religion and science. It is an understanding, not a blinding light or a voice from heaven. It is a uniquely human experience based on more than a mere consideration of oneself and ones environment.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:02:42 BDT
Spin says:
T: therein lies the conflict between Belief and Free will.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:04:09 BDT
I've read William Lame (sic) Craig. I thought he put forward the view that what one believed about God improves morals. But it's a long time since I read him.

I think that Rabbi Heschel's emphasis is probably one of the best ways (one of many ways I suspect) to capture what people with religious conviction 'mean' when they use the word 'God.' I don't think that they are putting forward a hypothesis. Indeed why would anyone think this when they so obviously state that they are not and it doesn't even look like one?

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:05:05 BDT
Bellatori says:
"How does one distinguish Gods intervention in human thought from a purely human, reasoned understanding?"

That is a question that no Muslim can ever ask himself. Mohammed was very clever to write his Bedouin survival manual as a treatise from God.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:09:52 BDT
Spin says:
Bellatori: But Mohamed could have used his "reason" to deny the existence of deity. Would you object to his mission if he had done so, or would you have joined those bombing in the name of "freedom of conscience"". Oh sorry, you guys are already doing that...=)

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:10:08 BDT
Last edited by the author on 31 Mar 2013 15:12:28 BDT
T. GREEN says:
Perhaps in a way spin but I do not believe the idea of a God is necessarily incompatible with free will, indeed the fact that a person chooses to believe means they have already exerted this.

People who believe in God can take on the concept of he/she/it as a literal part of themselves, as much I think as your arm or foot so becomes part of the whole person.

They can still choose, but they do so from a perspective of faith or at least faith becomes a factor in the choices, but they are still choosing.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:10:29 BDT
Bellatori says:
"I've never had a religious experience."

OK here is how you do it (I am not joking, Pope Pius XII would have attested to this)

1. fast for 24 hours
2. Do not drink or eat anything on the day in question AND it must be a bright sunny and warm one (>=25C)
3. Get up early and take a 5->6 mile walk.
4. Kneel on something hard and stare up at the sun for several hours and work yourself up into a silent frenzy of concentration and supplication.

You should have a religious experience. Pope Pius XII did so in the Vatican garden in 1952 and several 10s of thousands did at Fatima in Portugal.

No kidding that is exactly the recipe.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:12:22 BDT
Bellatori says:
He wanted to ensure that his words would be followed. How else but by saying God insists... Mohammed says would not really have the desired effect now would it?

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:15:26 BDT
Spin says:
T: According to the Abrahamic monotheistic religions we must do as God wills, not as we, the individual and society, will.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:18:40 BDT
Spin says:
Bellatori: Buddhist texts begin with the phrase "Thus it has been said.." indicating that it is to be analysed and questioned, not accepted as "absolute" truth...If monotheistic religious texts began with such words, there would be much less confusion and conflict regarding those religions.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:20:25 BDT
Last edited by the author on 31 Mar 2013 15:24:15 BDT
T. GREEN says:
However the choice to believe has been made by the individual, so free will or choice has already played its part, and as far as Im aware the ability to change ones mind on such matters is always an option to everybody.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:20:31 BDT
Bellatori says:
As Paul D pointed out from the RC catechism. You have to subordinate your will to God and the church. Mind you he then spent goodness knows how many posts trying to argue the opposite!

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:20:54 BDT
'Fast for 24 hours' ! I can't go without food for three hours!

'Do not drink or eat anything on the day in question AND it must be a bright sunny and warm one' Well since I live in England the warm, sunny day is not even an option.

I don't think I've ever heard anything so daft.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:24:17 BDT
Spin says:
T; I do not believe an acceptance of an ideology, be it religious; political or aesthetic is based on "free choice"; one has a tendency towards a belief based on experience and reasoning about that experience. No conclusion is ever "free" of prior considerations.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:24:51 BDT
Last edited by the author on 2 Apr 2013 01:22:22 BDT
Why DO so many atheists pile (often aggressively) onto the religion forum?

Because in their own way, today's 'Atheists' hold the same position in society 'the religious' held in previous eras. Assuming you refuse to accept this suggestion, consider the following.

Since the dawn of humanity two opposing 'religious' ideologies have sought to control and influence humanity. Simplistically represented as:- the forces of Good versus the forces of Evil, within the religious framework we are familiar with today; these two rival belief systems are represented by Christianity (and/or Islam) which accepts God (Jehovah/Allah) as mankind's creator/benefactor; versus Satanism which (in a direct reversal of traditional belief) considers Satan/Lucifer (not God) and his doctrines to be mankind's ultimate benefactor.

Since the mid 1800s, this occultic/Satanic 'faith' has become massively more popular within the world's intellectual/philosophical opinion formers. Rousseau, Darwin, Nietzsche, Marx and many others were all sympathetic in varying degrees to this 'left-hand path'. Encouraged by writers such as Aleister Crowley, Heidegger and Baeumler, their followers steadily infiltrated and subverted the literary, legal, political and educational establishments; intent on reversing the accepted norms of their societies.

The result of this quasi-religious 'conversion' of whole swaths of the world's most influencial individuals to what is in practical terms Satanic doctrine, has been responsible for the 'secularisation' of society, the atheistic/humanist revolution in Russia, the Nietzsche inspired cult of the superman in Germany, WWII, the reduction of traditional Christianity to impotent ridicule, the acceptance of homosexuality/immorality and drink/drug abuse as normal and contraception/abortion as life-style choices rather than sins against God.

When viewed from this perspective, the militant atheists of today are the mirror image of the crowds of outraged 'christian' peasants who (with tacit encouragement from the Inquisition) burned so many alive during the Medieval Era for the crime of independent thought. The only significant 'difference' is that, rather than Jews/Satanists; the target of today's bigotry is much more likely to be Christians.

Do What Thou Wilt: A Life of Aleister Crowley
Book of the Law: 100th Anniversary Edition
The Synagogue of Satan: The Secret History of Jewish World Domination
The Protocols of Zion
Lords of the Left-hand Path: Forbidden Practices and Spiritual Heresies
The Nazis and the Occult: The Dark Forces Unleashed by the Third Reich
The Occult in Russian and Soviet Culture
Paths to Satan: A Guide to Contemporary Satanism

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:27:36 BDT
Bellatori says:
Me neither and as for a beer...!?

...and yet that is what happened at Fatima. Somewhere between 30k and 70k people were alleged to have turned up and a very reliable source (admittedly a Catholic Priest but, if you read his report, a very fair and honest one) found that a significant proportion had had visions... this number ran to tens of thousands - not all by a long way but a huge number. It is not reasonable to claim mass hallucination or fraud but the claim of miracle did not stand up either. The church has been very leery of acknowledging miracles of this sort and the fact that Pius XII was induced to have visions in the Vatican garden convinced him that there was a probable natural explanation so the church downplayed it. Doesn't stop Fatima (like Lourdes) making a good living out of pilgrims though.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:29:09 BDT
T. GREEN says:
Well I guess we would have to disagree on this as people make choices based on information available to them at the time, its not true to say we have no way to change fate.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:29:38 BDT
Spin says:
Bellatori: A man or woman will subordinate themselves to their spouse and children. All they do is for the love of their family. A person may even "subordinate" themselves to a political ideal, spending time and effort promoting that politic. Society in general is subordinate to the traditions and laws of that society. Why, when even the atheist is subordinate to factors other than religion, is "subordination" to God such an alien concept to you?

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:33:34 BDT
T. GREEN says:
Of course some of that infomation is from prior experiences, but this in no way diminishes my point.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:39:48 BDT
Last edited by the author on 31 Mar 2013 15:41:49 BDT
Drew Jones says:
First: "I don't know anybody who believes that the belief that God, or gods, exists thereby improves morals or values."
Then: "I've read William Lame (sic) Craig. I thought he put forward the view that what one believed about God improves morals."
So there you go, you did know of someone who believes a belief in a deity, in this case God, informs your approach to social interaction.

"I don't think that they are putting forward a hypothesis. Indeed why would anyone think this when they so obviously state that they are not and it doesn't even look like one?"
Given that it's all claim, and an over emphasised claim excusing it's lack of evidence and missing any application of falsifiability I can't see it as anything other than a hypothesis. Given that what would *you* characterise it as?

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Mar 2013 15:43:18 BDT
Bellatori says:
You are taking me a tad literally I suspect!?

By the way, which bit of you do you think CWB is kissing?!
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  63
Total posts:  1425
Initial post:  28 Mar 2013
Latest post:  9 May 2013

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