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Are atheists completely anti God or just anti religion?


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In reply to an earlier post on 29 Jun 2011 16:49:22 BDT
C. A. Small says:
spin- that is what i said!

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Jun 2011 16:50:18 BDT
Jim Guest says:
It's very old.

What's new, here?

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Jun 2011 16:52:31 BDT
C. A. Small says:
I just love the "targetted at christianity" crap, are you aware of what your beloved christians did to the native americans ( north , middle and south), to muslims ( even though Islam is just a rewrite of the new testament, and to each other!

Religion is a force for evil, always has been, always will be.

Posted on 29 Jun 2011 17:00:23 BDT
Spin says:
Religion is a benefit only if it values man more than deity. Unfotrtunately, Jews, christians and muslims love a fictional character more than they love their brothers and sisters.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Jun 2011 17:02:08 BDT
Jim Guest says:
Small brain, or small morality?

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Jun 2011 17:41:45 BDT
C. A. Small says:
jim you can answer this yourself, but from observing your comments I would say you suffer from small brain, and little morality.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Jun 2011 17:47:29 BDT
Jim Guest says:
'all religion tries to stop all other religion'

Passively, of course. But some, in fact just about all in the last 2000 years, have been expressly targeted at Christianity- amongst many others mostly now forgotten, examples are Christian Science, Mormonism, JWism, Calvinism, Lutheranism, Islam and indeed Romanism. Until about the 1960s, those attempted to oppose Christianity by bogus teachings and practices, and often imposed 'Christian' morality and those bogus practices on society, or tried to. But in time the people resisted. The days are now gone when one became a Christian merely because one's monarch was Christian. The days are gone when lady teachers in Methodist schools were not permitted to marry. True enough, things went on in society that were not at all what Paul and the apostles commanded, but all looked prim and proper on the surface, which is what mattered in those days.

But today things look very different, with people now being shamed by Paul's letters in particular, although he taught nothing that any other Christian did not, does not teach. Some people simply want to get rid of real Christianity- and damn democracy and freedom as delineated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that barely gets a mention these days. For them, hormones reign supreme.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 Jun 2011 08:23:04 BDT
Post Soviet says:
Spin,

"Poles are quite tame. Give them cash and they will follow you anywhere. Much like the Americans, and Arabs."

Try me.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 10:42:54 BDT
Lark says:
Unless you live in the modern world in which the converse of your post is the case entirely.

Which between atheism and religion is likely to be the more challenging doctrine for living life and the status quo?

One exalts virtue and has expectations while the other is just null and void, besides suggesting there is no God and theism is suspect/error.

Rulers presently, the UK is an excellent example, take every opportunity to align themselves with popular atheism and secularism, there are few exceptions, perhaps some ill conceived evangelism has led to this tipping point but I really dont see it as being arguable that it has not happened.

Religion is increasingly a cultural irrelevence, certainly a political one besides attacking political islam, this is why you have to go as far back as Seneca, as you say before Christianity, to find a quote like that.

Posted on 2 Jul 2011 10:45:31 BDT
Lark says:
Maybe it is religion which is the bugbear of most atheists, someone recently posted about their path to atheism and it appeared to be entirely a reaction to and rejection of religion as opposed to anything else.

It might explain the juxtaposition of "organised religion", "religion" and God which most evangelists I've encountered espouse, I suspect they are people who have been through that rejecting religion and then came to reject atheism too.

Posted on 2 Jul 2011 11:50:34 BDT
Last edited by the author on 2 Jul 2011 11:52:46 BDT
"Rulers presently, the UK is an excellent example, take every opportunity to align themselves with popular atheism and secularism"

How specific of you.

Last time I looked, they haven't changed the title and lyrics of the national anthem, or abolished tax exemptions for religious organisations.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 14:23:19 BDT
Or, I'm sorry to say, abolished faith schools.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 14:58:38 BDT
William R says:
> One exalts virtue and has expectations while the other is just null and void, besides suggesting there is no God and theism is suspect/error.

I have to say I've always hated virtue.

It's an odd criticism of atheism to say that it is "just null and void". Should we go around pretending we think there is an invisible sky wizard in order to raise the tone of society? Is Scientology better than atheism despite being - I'm sure you will agree - utterly misguided and essentially a cynical scam designed to enrich its author and senior members. I happen to think homeopathy is nonsense too. Would you say this was morally inferior to believing in it?

Posted on 2 Jul 2011 15:33:01 BDT
Spin says:
The only problem with Atheists is that they can only rely on the negation of theistic arguments. Like theists, they cannot provide actual, independent proof for the basis of their belief, namely the non-existence of deity of any definition.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 15:40:59 BDT
Lark says:
Are you that hard up for money that you need to abolish faith schools to save taxes?

You guys are pretty big on how you'd like to abolish religion and see it disappear altogether, what's your alternative and why has it not succeeded as a better alternative already?

I mean provided your first principles that religion is obviously erroneous and without redeeming qualities is accepted as valid for the sake of discussion.

Posted on 2 Jul 2011 15:42:49 BDT
Jim Guest says:
As is well known everywhere, atheists frequently make formal claim for atheism, though never with successful rationale. As is well known here by now, theists never make formal claim for theism, and have not done so for well over a century, when organised religion, that had to justify itself in some way, presented 'arguments' for existence of deity. But this does not stop cretins, crooks and kiddie-fiddlers from lying about that. It wouldn't, would it.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 15:47:35 BDT
Lark says:
I dont believe that religious is analogous to homeopathy, likewise I dont believe that anyone should believe anything which is not true, sky wizards included.

Its the whole reason I dont believe in or advocate atheism because I dont believe it is true and there no persuasive evidence proving to the contrary either.

Atheism has nothing what so ever to offer besides "there is no God" which, and this really defies the understanding of most atheists in my experience, to most people is synomynous with "there is no hope".

There are no two atheists who will agree upon virtues, norms, mores, if they do it is more often coincidence than by design, as has been said elsewhere these things are ajudged matters of individual taste or subjectivity.

That chimes perfectly with the popular individualism of the day today but it is quite inorganic and artificial, the existence of a common, shared language alone suggests otherwise.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 15:48:42 BDT
Lark says:
Agreed. Point well made.

The only exclusively logical or rational perspectives are either agnosticism or deism.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 15:50:12 BDT
Lark says:
Jim,

I hope you have someone you can talk to in person, you seem like a pretty troubled guy and it could help you know.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 15:51:34 BDT
William R says:
I don't see how abolishing faith schools would save taxes. Surely it would cost the taxpayer more in additional state school places.

The proposal was not to save tax anyway, it was to prevent the indoctrination of children.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 16:03:15 BDT
Lark says:
By indoctrinating them with atheism instead, really?

Well, that confirms at least my theory that most atheists are the way they are as a consequence of rejecting or rebelling their upbringing.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 16:03:23 BDT
Lark,

I'm not hard up for money, thank you, and I don't primarily disagree with faith schools on the basis of taxes. I disagree with children being taught that religions are real when they can't discriminate for themselves.

I haven't said that I'd abolish religion, although I would like to see it disappear. Religion isn't needed and s doesn't need to be replaced with anything.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 16:15:17 BDT
Lark,

You said:
"Atheism has nothing what so ever to offer besides "there is no God""

Atheism makes no claims to offer anything. It's a description of someone who lacks belief in gods. It's amazing that so many theists continually fail to grasp this simple fact despite it having been explained many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. At this stage, it can only be willful ignorance.

You said:
"which, and this really defies the understanding of most atheists in my experience, to most people is synomynous with "there is no hope"."

Actually, this is understood, just not agreed with. If people think that a deity is required for hope, they are very deluded.

You said:
"There are no two atheists who will agree upon virtues, norms, mores, if they do it is more often coincidence than by design, as has been said elsewhere these things are ajudged matters of individual taste or subjectivity."

I know, it's brilliant, isn't it! People thinking for themselves, arriving at morality through thought instead of giving up their own morality and subscribing to an off-the-shelf religion.

You said:
"That chimes perfectly with the popular individualism of the day today but it is quite inorganic and artificial, the existence of a common, shared language alone suggests otherwise."

Firstly, everyone doesn't share a common language. Secondly, language comes from a need/desire to communicate ideas. Without individualism, there would be no need to communicate ideas as everyone would have the same thoughts.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 16:17:22 BDT
No, by teaching them to think rationally for themselves, thus allowing them when they're of a suitable age to determine individually whether or not they accept a religion as true.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Jul 2011 16:18:25 BDT
Last edited by the author on 2 Jul 2011 16:21:44 BDT
William R says:
> I dont believe that religious is analogous to homeopathy

Why on Earth not? It's totally like homeopathy, in that it makes factual claims for the existence of phenomena requiring magic, and is thus at odds with what we know of the natural world, with nothing but folk tradition and anecdotal evidence to back it up. Also like religion, I don't need to disprove it, because it's far-fetched and unsupported by evidence.

Atheism is under no obligation to offer virtues, norms, mores or anything else. I think you have it confused with humanism.
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  61
Total posts:  1059
Initial post:  23 Jun 2011
Latest post:  14 Mar 2015

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