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Why did God let people crucify Jesus?


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In reply to an earlier post on 2 May 2012 21:10:15 BDT
Shakepen says:
CE: If it is any consolation, rats on a starvation diet lived twice as long as rats given food on demand. There was some guy in the U.S. who was on a starvation diet to see if the labratory results could be replicated. His on-going progress has not been reported.

In reply to an earlier post on 2 May 2012 22:21:45 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Read "Hitlers willing executioners". They knew, and they lied.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 00:51:23 BDT
Shakepen says:
CA: The Hitler regime made use of disassociation by attempting to create a "false" religion. Look at the SS and Himmler. They consistently had religious-like rites. These exercises in disassociation were to bind the men to Hitler and the SS. The freaky thing is that they were successful!

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 00:56:03 BDT
Shakepen says:
CA: I believe one could say these people lied because they knew what was happening at some level. However, I think that they did not know at a conscious level. I'm not even certain that the U.S. ever investigated this possibility as they did in Korea. Korea was different because the army was astounded at the success of Chinese brainwashing. Did you realize that not one American soldier escaped from captivity in the Korean War? This fact was incredible when one considers that up to 500 men would be guarded by 2-3 Chinese and the fence was a single strand of barb wire.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 09:36:09 BDT
Fasting maybe one day every few months is a good idea, and actually encouraged as a viable detox.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/18/fasting-protect-brain-diseases-scientists
http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/is_fasting_healthy
http://drbenkim.com/fasting-fast-one-day-week.htm

But fasting for a month straight, i.e Ramadan, is absolutely ridiculous.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 11:00:31 BDT
I don't know I haven't tried it. But they eat after sunset don't they?

Posted on 3 May 2012 11:02:24 BDT
It must be easier in hot climate to stop activity and not eat in the daytime, then eat at night when it is cool. In fact I'm sure it would make you feel much better.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 11:08:07 BDT
I did it for a few years in a row when I was very young.

You eat and drink as much as you can before sunrise (technically Fajr; dawn Prayer), then you don't touch a crumb or a drop until after sunset (Maghrib; evening Prayer).

Not drinking water in a desert, is one of the biggest causes of death in muslim nations during ramadan. But of course, most muslims believe if they die whilst fasting, they get a spot in the clouds.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 16:22:38 BDT
Your argument is what exactly?

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 16:33:26 BDT
Re tomb-- because Jerusalem was a small place/the tomb in a wealthy area and the events clearly caused some stir.
Re oral literature -- Jesus and the early apostles spoke (but did not write much) Aramaic. The NT is in Greek. Aramaic is therefore one sign of an earlier oral tradition, as is repeated oral formulas such as 'Amen, Amen I say unto you.' Other parts of the NT contain formulaic prayers and rythmic sayings and liturgical elements that are not the kind of material invented in literary texts. Paul the earliest written of the NT writers cites what is clearly oral material in these terms, and says he is doing so.
The historical evidence for the resurrection consists in the impact on the apostles.
It is all very well rubbishing Strobel, but since you have read the book now we should perhaps discuss specific arguments, which do not come from Strobel, but from well known scholars. However, as I have said repeatedly I do not regard the historical evidence in a slam dunk way but merely as a prelude and as a rebuttal to the constant cries of fantasies and fairy stories from other posters.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 16:40:03 BDT
Shakepen says:
CA: I think I will read your recommendation.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 17:00:25 BDT
Last edited by the author on 3 May 2012 18:50:00 BDT
Drew Jones says:
"Re tomb-- because Jerusalem was a small place/the tomb in a wealthy area and the events clearly caused some stir."
So where does that put the tomb? If this is enough of a reference to isolate an area it should get us to the tomb or we should have a good idea of where it was and I don't think we do. I think this is just enough 'information' to make it sound like an open claim but little enough for it to be meaningless to anyone who would have tried to investigate.

"Re oral literature -- Jesus and the early apostles spoke (but did not write much) Aramaic. The NT is in Greek. Aramaic is therefore one sign of an earlier oral tradition, as is repeated oral formulas such as 'Amen, Amen I say unto you.' Other parts of the NT contain formulaic prayers and rythmic sayings and liturgical elements that are not the kind of material invented in literary texts."
How does this translate into dates a particular story started forming? That was what you claimed this did and I don't see how you are linking to to the story. All we have is a list of things appearing in the text not a way to know how they would relate to an oral tradition started at a particular time. Simply saying "formulaic prayers and rythmic sayings and liturgical elements that are not the kind of material invented in literary texts" doesn't make it so, if you can say them you can write them you need a better reason than you're giving.

"Paul the earliest written of the NT writers cites what is clearly oral material in these terms, and says he is doing so."
Well who could argue with a circular citation? Personally I'm sure the stories were first developed orally before being committed to parachment which would have been very expensive and required specialist skills such as literacy, what that doesn't do it tie the oral tradition to a specific time, the timeframe could well become part of the story, i.e. you traditionally start the story with 'A generation ago..." even if it's been being told like that for two or three generations already. None of this actually gives any evidence of a time the stories developed and I'm still none the wiser as to how you recognise a time an oral traditon starts from reading textual account of that story.

"The historical evidence for the resurrection consists in the impact on the apostles."
But given that the impact it had on the apostles is part of the story we can't so easily assume it to be the case that they were as surprised and fearful as they say. In fact it makes no reasonable sense for people that had left jobs and families to follow a person they held to be their leader, who they apparently saw performing mulitple miracles and foreseeing his own death to be shocked that events transpired pretty much as he had said. It's a contradiction in the characters motivation but it's also a common and popular narrative effect, you have to build the tension by having a let down so that the final reveal is all the greater by comparison. The story doesn't hold it's power if they watch Jesus die on the cross, all agree to go home to wait for him to ressurect himself as promised and meet back at the tomb which they have already know will be empty because He does stuff like that.

"It is all very well rubbishing Strobel, but since you have read the book now we should perhaps discuss specific arguments, which do not come from Strobel, but from well known scholars."
If you want, which chapters expert would you like to deal with first? I'll have to go back and refresh my memory on the specifics but apart from Strobel being a poor writer I'm happy go through anything in there.

"However, as I have said repeatedly I do not regard the historical evidence in a slam dunk way but merely as a prelude and as a rebuttal to the constant cries of fantasies and fairy stories from other posters."
And I think it is so poor, so reliant on special pleading, claims repeated so that they are assumed to be well supported when they are not and the Gospels being taken at wholesale face value that it only damages the claim. Any standard you want to set for Christianity or the Gospels being true can be found and often better by another faith claim that you would want to reject.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 17:14:39 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Hi Shakepen- it is a harrowing and horrible, but worthwhile read.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 18:26:09 BDT
Shakepen says:
Drew and TW: I found this post refreshing. You both made good points.

Posted on 3 May 2012 19:48:52 BDT
Spin says:
As the John Gospel relates, the legs of the crucified were broken to ensure death (as the body cannot support itself and the lungs collapse). So the resureccted Jesus was in a wheel-chair?

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 20:13:40 BDT
Last edited by the author on 3 May 2012 20:14:57 BDT
Shakepen says:
Spin: If one is ascending to heaven, a wheelchair would be useless, wouldn't it?

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 20:16:20 BDT
Spin says:
Shakespen. Well, John states that Christs legs were broken (according to Roman execution). So either God repired Jesus legs or Christ floated across the land.....

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 20:26:36 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Shakepen- a jet pack might help?

Posted on 3 May 2012 20:49:15 BDT
Spin says:
An Aston Martin, perhaps?

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 21:37:26 BDT
I thought it said at one point 'not a bone was broken'.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 May 2012 22:29:12 BDT
DB says:
Spin says :- "Well, John states that Christs legs were broken "..

Spin
If only you knew half as much as you think you know.
I've got an idea. You could read a book ( ie bible) then you wouldn't need to pretend to know what is in it.
Now there's a novel idea for an atheist.

John 19
31 It was the Day of Preparation, and to avoid the bodies' remaining on the cross during the Sabbath since that Sabbath was a day of special solemnity the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken away.

32 Consequently the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with him and then of the other.

33 When they came to Jesus, they saw he was already dead, and so instead of breaking his legs

34 one of the soldiers pierced his side with a lance; and immediately there came out blood and water.

35 This is the evidence of one who saw it true evidence, and he knows that what he says is true and he gives it so that you may believe as well.

36 Because all this happened to fulfil the words of scripture: Not one bone of his will be broken;

37 and again, in another place scripture says: They will look to the one whom they have pierced.

38 After this, Joseph of Arimathaea, who was a disciple of Jesus though a secret one because he was afraid of the Jews asked Pilate to let him remove the body of Jesus. Pilate gave permission, so they came and took it away.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 May 2012 09:09:26 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Nice fairy story- oh no, it isn't even a nice fairy story. A horrible fairy story.

Maybe if you spent less time bead juggling you might actually have something to say?

In reply to an earlier post on 4 May 2012 15:06:05 BDT
Spin says:
DB: So by qouting the text in which John states that Christs legs were broken you hope to show that Christs legs were NOT broken? What exactly is it you claim that I "do not know"?

Posted on 4 May 2012 15:24:22 BDT
"Why did God let people crucify Jesus?" - Cheaper than a BA flight.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 May 2012 15:29:10 BDT
Spin says:
Popcorn: And quicker through customs...=)
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  117
Total posts:  4169
Initial post:  27 Nov 2011
Latest post:  12 Dec 2012

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