Was a person called Jesus, ever really crucified?

MJS:
"Apart from these examples, the word 'religion' is hardly mentioned in the NT. The OT, on the other hand, has a fair bit to say about false deities and religions."

Both the OT and the NT are examples of collections of stories about false deities and religions. I have no reason to exempt Judaism and Christianity, or their gods from those descriptions.

Please yourself, Norm! Just as you think I am wrong, I think you are wrong. One thing's for sure, we can't both be right (or wrong)!

Hi Pendragon- many thanks. It is exactly what I expected and predicted.

Cheers, Clive.

Pendragon,

Those are the verses that came to my mind as well. It is thought that Ezekiel saw a space ship.

The word for chariot in the OT is merkavah. Merkavah is the vehicle Elijah went up in the sky with when he left Elisha standing on the ground. A Merkavah can be achieved with intense meditation.

There is another type of chariot which is mentioned in the OT is thati is the iron chariot, (rekev) this one is a regular chariot and doesn't have any spiritual relationship like the Merkavah does.

Light " it is thought that Ezekial saw a spaceship" - not by those of us that can think clearly it isn't.

light

"It is thought that Ezekiel saw a space ship"

Who apart from von Däniken and Blumrich think this?

Peendragon - ["It is suspected that Leonardo da Vinci was influenced by their presence there."
Is that why he faked the Turin Shroud?]

The Secret Supper
Javier Sierra, in his evocative novel "The Secret Supper" describing the painting of the Last Supper, comes up with the interesting hypothesis of an occult reading of the figures at the table (right to left from the knot in the tablecloth) as CONSOLAMENTUM, the principal rite of the Cathars.
The Woman with the Alabaster Jar: Mary Magdalen and the Holy Grail
Margaret Starbird, a Roman Catholiic, set out to prove Dan Brown equivocal in his symbological interpretations, and ended up writing "The Woman with the Alabaster Jar", in which she reveals that almost all of Leonardo's religious paintings (as well as many of those of his contemporaries) contain symbolic references to Catharism.

Why would an anatomical expert and master of proportion, such as Leonardo, (deliberately?) incorporate a basic error in the proportions of the head and positioning of the eyes on the eyebrow line, which have been observed in the Shroud image?

Sam H. - "On an online forum, they take up exactly the same amount of ink. "

But "sin" requires less finger-work, which if you type like me is a great advantage! :-)

Sam H. - "You're the one claiming (here) that biblical passages led to a scientific discovery."

Not me, but Blumrich. If the topic is of sufficient interest, the logical thing to do would be to consult (rather than his critics) HIS work, which I no longer have to hand!

- "I mean that there is no unified system of morals and ethics tied specifically to being an atheist."

I find it extraordinary that no atheist philosopher has ever tried to produce a unified theory of ethics without any reference to religious concepts. Could this be interpreted as atheists having little interest in ethics?

"This is an argument from authority."

As indeed is the request for citations of peer-group approved PhD level Geologists who support the Global Flood theory! Blumrich cites the relevant passages and my memory is limited.

- "What a ridiculous sentence."

Intentional argumentum ad absurdum to demonstrate the limits of scepticism. Even atheists believe in something (possibly even without rational foundation)!

CAS - "Because they were not a sceptic to start with, it is just a ploy to add credence to the nonsense, and suck in the hard of thinking. "

So what of atheists who incorporate all kinds of cultural and linguistic superstitious and religious references into their daily lives? Are they not being fraudulent sceptics too?
Perhaps the answer is "God only knows!"

CAS - "Michael- no, a savage indictment of the stupidity of our species. It will not be apocalyptic, but a slow painful extinction. "

You mean "Not with a bang, but a whimper"? (T. S. Elliot) But the world still ends!
Perhaps this is the outcome of the "Original Sin", i.e. free-will and man's ambition to outdo God!
The warning is there in the Bible, but few are willing to listen.

Pendragon,

speculation amongst the common folk.

CAS - "That Blumrich had an idea about an engineering solution after reading a passage I do not doubt, but to link the two is silly."

Look at Blumrich's claims rather than mine. Can you remember the precise citations of anything you read 30 years ago? Blumrich looked at the Biblical descriptions from the point of view of spatial engineering and came up with a revolutionary patent. His inspiration came from the Bible combined with his engineering knowledge. That is all he claims and I believe him. He would not have developed this particular design without examining the Bible. I'm sure that the writer of Ezekiel was not aiming at giving detailed 20th century engineering instructions, even if he had been capable of doing so.

I am also a great admirer of the Spitfire. The naval Typhoon was developed from the Spitfire. Did you know that the Typhoon in a dive was able to outrun is own tracers and so shoot itself? A minor technical problem! :-)

On this score, has it ever struck you how ancient descriptions of dragons resemble a modern jet fighter plane, except that they "spit fire" from the wrong end, bar the guns and missiles? Could dragons' teeth and scales be compared to unidentified bullets, shell cases and missile debris? Give a little rein to your imagination!

Pendragon - "I don't know which passages in Ezekiel Blumrich relied upon, but this sounds like an "Omnidirectional Wheel" as patented by Blumrich"

Thank you for digging this up! Now maybe I'll get some peace.

Pendragon - [ "It is thought that Ezekiel saw a space ship"
Who apart from von Däniken and Blumrich think this? ]

OK then, eliminating a spaceship, what do you or biblical commentators think that Ezekiel was trying to describe?
And was it a magic carpet or a hovercraft that was used in the Book of the Kings of Ethiopia (Kebra Nagast/Negest) to transport the Ark of the Covenant from Jerusalem to Ethiopia?

CAS - "Hi Pendragon- many thanks. It is exactly what I expected and predicted."

I have to admit that the textual analysis is pretty damning!
http://www.spaceshipsofezekiel.com/html/text_analysis-josef-blumrich.html
But you have to admire his ingeniousness, if not his ingenuousness!

Norm D. - "Both the OT and the NT are examples of collections of stories about false deities and religions."

So please give an example of a deity or religion that is not false in your opinion!

Michael- as I suspected, the relevant passages in Ezekiel show nothing. The idea that anyone used this as a blueprint is daft. He read the passage, it gave him an idea, then his obviously marvellous evolved ape brain did the work.

Incidentally dspite much bluster and promise, no theist has yet produced a list of the geologists. This is because no-one takes the global flood myth seriously, unless they are a theist.

Michael. No a theist who claims to be a sceptic to get a bigger audience is a fraud, and a liar.

Michael- what is a "naval Typhoon"? The typhoon was never used on carriers to my knowledge. Also why do you think that it was a developement of the Spitfire? The Spit was still being developed when the Typhoon became the Tempest, and the Spit was from Vickers Supermarine, and the Tyffie was from Hawker?

Going back to Blumrich, he may have had the idea after reading the bible, but that is all. The rest is absolute bunkum.

Michael- do not bank upon it.

Michael- neither , just exageration for effect. Seriously, you do not believe that it was a magic carpet do you?

CAS - "Michael- neither , just exageration for effect. Seriously, you do not believe that it was a magic carpet do you?"

You obviously haven't read the relevant passage! I don't blame you, but it is curious all the same! It sounded to me more like a hovercraft or suspension by electro-magnetic induction!!!

There are a lot of other old books apart from the Bible, you know! :-))

Michael- "a hovercraft or suspension by electro-magnetic induction!!!" or an over active imagination, or drugs? Which is more likely?

All these sorts of claims really do not deserve any serious consideration.

CAS - "The Spit was still being developed when the Typhoon became the Tempest"

Sorry, memory failure gong back even further to a prep-school lecture from a naval expert. My knowledge of the history of war-planes is obviously not as good as yours, but I was led to understand that the Typhoon was developed for the navy. I really liked the bit about being able to shoot themselves, though!

Ever seen a 2-seater Spit? They used to have one at Hurn flying club.