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Mother beats son to death for failing to learn the quran.

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In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 12:26:56 GMT
C. A. Small says:
grow up. If you cannot see the difference between beating a child to death, and an adult joining the forces you really need help.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 12:27:07 GMT
G. Hanks says:
"C.Scott - all true. Sadly all the many "true" muslims seem to be silent in condemning the "bad " muslims- perhaps they are just too scared of their fellow muslims?"

I don't think that's necessarily true. I've seen interviews on news programmes with Muslim leaders condemning extremist actions before. It could be a case that certain news sources have agendas where showing any muslim in a good light is not tolerated.

Alternatively perhaps they're just sick of defending idiots who give their religion a bad name (well... a worse one.) I'd get a bit sick and tired if I had to apologise for some of the muppets our country produce that go cause problems in other countries (mostly after football matches.)

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 12:30:41 GMT
C. Scott says:
Spin, Ironically I could not agree with you more, but probably for different reasons. To characterise all of the "western anti-religious lobby" as a monolithic body who all think the same is as meaningless as doing the same for all Muslims. I for one - although part of that lobby - have opposed from day one any British intervention in Iraq or Afghanistan, or for that matter in Libya or Syria. We are no longer a world power or the world's policeman and have neither the right nor the resources to try and act as such. On a purely practical level our interventions have caused nothing but instability and ill feeling - these foreign adventures are not wanted or supported by the majority of the UK population nor obviously by the countries affected. But where you and I part company is that my main motive for opposing intervention in any Muslim country is that frankly I don't really care what happens in that country and their problems are up to their own people to sort out. When I vote in an election I am voting for a British government to sort out the many problems of the UK, not to go adventuring abroad looking to sort out other people's problems. In these days of scarce resources let us use those we have to sort out our own issues and leave others to sort out theirs.
In some ways the oil and energy issues are a curse and I for one will be very glad - assuming there is a viable replacement - when the last well runs dry. I would favour a policy which I would call "constructive disengagement" whereby we would devote all available resources to developing long term alternatives to oil and gas to enable us to reduce our dealings with oil producing countries to simple bilateral trade that is not oil dependent.

Posted on 10 Jan 2013 12:32:30 GMT
C. A. Small says:
The whole religion runs on an odious premise.

I have never seen a muslim condemn the muslims who cause mayhem because someone has insulted their "prophet".

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 12:32:44 GMT
Spin says:
CA; You miss the point entirely.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 12:37:41 GMT
Spin says:
C; Let them fight it out among themselves and when they are ready for McDonalds, Google, PS3s and "I'm a strictly dancing X-factor celebrity" they can give us a call...

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 13:07:34 GMT
Last edited by the author on 10 Jan 2013 13:12:09 GMT
C. Scott says:
I would not inflict any of these hideous cultural excrescences on anyone! But I really think you are failing to see the real sticking point. However much we kid ourselves (or try to) in our touchy feely, multicultural, multifaith bubble that all belief systems can be mutually respectful and coexist, on a very fundamental level that is simply not true.
The vocal and often violent protests worldwide following such incidents as the Danish cartoons and the Innocence of Muslims films, demonstrate the face of Islam that DEMANDS that everyone, including those who are not members of their faith, show deference and respect to their faith and their prophet and DEMANDS that societies with traditions of free expression and satire and open comment should ban such depictions and such films. That to me is excessive, arrogant and unacceptable. I have no respect for their prophet and feel no need to comply with their feeling for him. Personally I see no need to gratuitously insult him but if that contingency arose then I would reserve the right to do so in a free society.
On the other hand the influx of Islam to the west is perceived to be accompanied by a DEMAND for the host society to adapt to and accommodate to Islam and its needs and wishes. Be it the building of another mosque or the opening of another faith school or the imposition of halal meat on those who do not want to consume it, Islam is perceived by many in the UK as a faith that demands much and gives very little.
Many ploys are used to counter criticisms - the usual one is "Have you read the Koran?" In one discussion I had I said that I had, upon which my interlocutor asked if I had read it in Arabic as any translation necessarily weakened its message. I simply asked him if he had read all of the articles and posts in the EDL website before voicing his concerns and opposition about that organisation. It seems that he hadn't.
There are many concerns in the UK about Islam and its impact and am sure that these are being manipulated and used by forces on both sides of the divide. But to simply ignore them, to stifle them, to label any criticism of Islam as "hate speech" and the voicing of any concern as Islamophobia is not helpful in the long run. And can we PLEASE lay one long running absurdity to rest. The most damning word currently in the UK is to label someone as "racist" - is is seen as a conversation closer and is used by the vocal left to attempt to stifle any further discussion. To label someone who is critical of Islam as "racist" is absurd and nonsensical, especially in view of the fact that it is a common boast of Islam how many converts it is achieving worldwide from all ethnic groups. The term Muslim carries no ethnic suggestion at all. There are Arab Muslims, Caucasian Muslims, African Muslims, Chinese Muslims, Slavic Muslims etc etc etc. So to call any anti Muslim comment as "racist" is utterly meaningless. Islam is a belief system, not a racial or ethnic group.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 13:12:55 GMT
C. A. Small says:
All true.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 13:14:53 GMT
Dan Fante says:
Good post.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 13:16:59 GMT
Spin says:
C; A racist does not consider himself a "racist". A theist does not consider himself a "theist". Society is too hung up on labels as it tries to eliminate labels. The latest "labels" are "strivers" and "shirkers", labels promoted by government.., Do not label people. The ancient idea that to name something is to know it is a falsity..

Posted on 10 Jan 2013 13:22:51 GMT
C. Scott says:
"A racist does not consider himself a "racist"."
Again you miss the point - I am saying that to label someone with a currently denigratory label - "racist" - for expressing an opinion that has nothing to do with race or ethnicity is illogical and meaningless.
I am not denying that racism exists. I am saying that to voice concerns about or criticisms of Islam is not "racist" as it concerns a belief system whose adherents include most if not all ethnic groups.
"Do not label people."
far from it - I was simply trying to counter a label commonly and mistakenly applied to those who voice concerns about Islam.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 13:30:14 GMT
Spin says:
C; I was in fact agreeing with some of your points but simply stating my take on the subject. Apologies. The passion and manner of your expression lends itself to question.

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 22:07:57 GMT
Charlieost says:
Very pleased to hear that Gracechild so could you make an efforet to persuade your fellow believers to stop interfering in the lives of those who do not subscribe to your belief. In Ireland women in particular have suffered horribly from the representatives of your loving god. As have many childen throughout the world.

Do those of the Islamic faith believe their god to be loving as well? If so then that unfortunate child must have been loved to death. C

In reply to an earlier post on 10 Jan 2013 22:10:52 GMT
Last edited by the author on 10 Jan 2013 22:12:52 GMT
Charlieost says:
Spin says:
Roma: Of all the atrocities that occur in the world, and there are many, the only "crimes" I consider to be genuinely "evil", by intent or consequence, are those perpetrated against children. My heart breaks when I hear of such cases...

Hi Spin. So do you not consider genocide to be evil unless it involves the killing of children? You have my curiosity piqued yet again. C

In reply to an earlier post on 11 Jan 2013 13:06:51 GMT
Last edited by the author on 11 Jan 2013 13:12:18 GMT
Spin says:
Charliost: If genocide did not involve the murder of children, I would not consider it "evil". An immoral, unjustified atrocity, yes, but an "evil", no. It is not the numbers of victims or perpetrators which determine an evil. Those who consider the elimination of a race as Evil are often happy to eliminate vast numbers of other species without considering that to be "evil".

Posted on 11 Jan 2013 13:09:45 GMT
Dan Fante says:
Where's the cut-off point then, i.e. at what age does the victim have to be in order for a heinous crime committed against them to no longer consider 'evil'?

In reply to an earlier post on 11 Jan 2013 13:18:03 GMT
Spin says:
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Posted on 11 Jan 2013 13:23:06 GMT
Dan Fante says:
I thought it would be fair enough, since you are making the distinction between what crimes are evil and what are not based on whether the victim is a child or not, to ask you how you would define that. Silly me.

In reply to an earlier post on 11 Jan 2013 13:30:24 GMT
Spin says:
Dan: I do not know the point, if any, at which a child becomes an adult. Individuals differ in thier physical and mental devolopment. Each case must be judged on its own circumstances, not according to the human tendency to classify one person according to unjustified social and legal labels.

Posted on 11 Jan 2013 13:54:23 GMT
Last edited by the author on 11 Jan 2013 13:59:55 GMT
Dan Fante says:
But Spin, you are the one doing the classifying here. I was merely asking for the basis on which you make that judgement. Upon further questioning, it seems to become more and more nebulous and problematic for you to tie down. Perhaps this theory of yours needs a rethink ;-)

In reply to an earlier post on 11 Jan 2013 13:59:02 GMT
Spin says:
Da; No, I am not classifying "evil" I was quite clear in saying that I, (note: "I") consider child abuse to be "evil", I never claimed to define evil.

Posted on 11 Jan 2013 14:06:27 GMT
Dan Fante says:
Talk about painting yourself into a corner. Deary me.

In reply to an earlier post on 11 Jan 2013 14:13:40 GMT
Spin says:
Dan: How do I paint myself into a corner? What you consider Evil may differ from what I consider evil. So why, and in what sense, is your definition, whatever it might be, superior to my own?,

Posted on 11 Jan 2013 14:41:24 GMT
Dan Fante says:
You made a statement, I asked about the specifics of it, your answers were nebulous to say the least. With that in mind, continuing the debate seems a tad futile. Have a nice weekend though ;-)

In reply to an earlier post on 11 Jan 2013 14:49:50 GMT
Spin says:
Dan: "nebulous"? Are you saying my posts are of cosmic significance? Why, thanks! =) Don't worry, the term "evil" is a relative English word, which provides a great source of debate amongst all us pure and righteous examples of humanity. =)
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  26
Total posts:  199
Initial post:  6 Dec 2012
Latest post:  19 Jan 2013

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