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Are Most Atheists really Atheists or...


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In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 19:08:02 GMT
Interesting point - it is precisely the sort of tool we used to use on evangelism courses I went on - people may be only 1% bad, but expect God to forgive that in the light of the 99% good that they do.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 20:05:08 GMT
Spin says:
MR WD: So, on your logic, God forgives a pedophile who spends most of his time doing charitable work? Jimmy Saville must be grinning...

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 20:37:16 GMT
Last edited by the author on 13 Feb 2013 20:41:49 GMT
There were probably more dignified ways for you to quit and scuttle off midge, but I accept your defeat nevertheless.

And note your cowardice.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 22:29:10 GMT
Archibald F says:
"It is absolutely shameful that an organisation which claims to be a force for good backed by a benevolent god should do this. It is morally bankrupt. DO you think God is proud of the way the church has acted?"

Considering the bible quotes Jesus as saying "And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea." it's fair, as you say, that God is far from proud when such things have been done, where they have been allowed to continue, and where they have been (attempted to be) covered up.

We are all appalled at what Savile did.

For people who believe in God, many will believe he will have to give account to God. And priests who have harmed children will also have to face that. Such righteous anger is, however, probably tempered by a recognition that they themselves, when held up to a standard of perfection, probably fall short by quite some way too.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 22:30:12 GMT
Who says that - did you not read the post?

Actually I don't know why I ask that question, from past experience you don't appear to have been reading my posts only reacting to them.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 22:43:40 GMT
Drew Jones says:
This is why I can't stand theistic morality or consider it good. It's all too little, too late, meaningless words and platitudes, no consideration for the victim and an deference of responsibility.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 22:58:54 GMT
Archibald F says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 23:00:03 GMT
Last edited by the author on 13 Feb 2013 23:03:55 GMT
DB says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 23:17:20 GMT
Last edited by the author on 13 Feb 2013 23:18:46 GMT
James Smith says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 23:30:19 GMT
Last edited by the author on 13 Feb 2013 23:39:32 GMT
Drew Jones says:
"Considering the bible quotes Jesus as saying..."
That's the meaningless platitudes part, quoting people does nothing in the face of problems.

"For people who believe in God, many will believe he will have to give account to God."
This is the bit that failed to consider the victim. You make it just between the criminal and your god. It's also the bit that reduces personal responsibility as you hand over punishment to another being in another lifetime.
"Such righteous anger is, however, probably tempered by a recognition that they themselves, when held up to a standard of perfection, probably fall short by quite some way too."
Compounds it all.

"A need to stand before God and give account for actions would actually increase personal responsibility - a world in which people like Savile could not get away with it."
They would, and you think this is that world so they did get away with it because your god's form of justice is the idea where he sees all that's going on, let's it happen and says to himself 'when you're finished I'll give you what for.' If you heard of a person who not only could have stopped child abuse but looked on and did nothing you'd consider then little better yet make it a god and you think it actions to be praised.

"Which leaves the bit about how, if true, could effect the rest of us - I guess this is the part you don't like?"
It's that even if it was true it's a crappy way to run things and you can't evaluate it properly, that's what annoys me.

In reply to an earlier post on 13 Feb 2013 23:47:20 GMT
DB says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 02:37:34 GMT
Spin says:
MR WD: Who says that? You do, in your post concerning the percentages of "good" and "Evil";

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 07:11:04 GMT
Last edited by the author on 14 Feb 2013 07:14:46 GMT
Drew Jones says:
"So you don't like God."
Inference isn't your greatest power. I don't like the moral philosophy advanced by interventionist religions, for the reasons explained above, they project too much onto the object of their devotion including responsibility for there being any criticism of their thinking.

"He isn't what you think he should be."
No, the beliefs you hold, the morality you buy into isn't as you think it is. It's not good, it's not caring. it's sociopathic in places. That's where I disagree, don't try to push this onto your god, he didn't do anything (literally).

"He annoys you."
Wrong. Try to concentrate. What was it I said right from the start annoyed me? You can do this.

"Got it!"
You don't got it. You rarely have it.

"Now which part of this proves he does not exist?"
This was never about monotheistic existentialism.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 07:30:33 GMT
K. Hoyles says:
How can you not like something that doesn't exist?

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 09:09:02 GMT
Last edited by the author on 14 Feb 2013 09:11:10 GMT
Drew Jones says:
It's a very confused logical argument that reveals the trapped mindset of the religious that can't envisage how things would work without a god being responsible for everything, so they can only grasp this as people being angry with something god did - no one else.

Logically it's sound, for example; if you think Ronald McDonald really is in charge of McDonald's then your complaints about the quality of their burgers, the nutritional value of their kids meals or hygiene of their kitchens are a criticism of his managerial skills. If however he doesn't exist that same person isn't informed enough to know what to do.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 10:59:40 GMT
Last edited by the author on 14 Feb 2013 11:00:36 GMT
DB,

How many people would die if there were no hospitals?
How many would die if there were no churches?

In fact, if there were no churches/religion I suspect there would be a lot more people alive.
Hospitals employ many more people than churches but the percentage of abuse is much lower. As I said before, the abuse in hospitals is hopefully found quite quickly because patients make complaints which are then dealt with. Unlike the church, where the young abusees were to blame or homosexuality. But the church did not involve police and was not open like a hospital enquiry.

Hospitals save millions of lives. I do not want any to close. ANy abuse found there must be dealt with and I believe it generally is.
Send your children to a catholic church and there is a high risk they will be abused. This outweighs any benefit that I can see of said church.

PS DO you think God is proud of the way the church has acted?

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 13:31:06 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 14:19:14 GMT
Last edited by the author on 14 Feb 2013 14:20:23 GMT
James Smith says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 14:49:04 GMT
Last edited by the author on 14 Feb 2013 14:51:49 GMT
DB says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 14:57:27 GMT
DB says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 15:03:47 GMT
"The catholic church has put in place safeguards for children in every place and circumstance where children are involved."

As you're so fond of asking for this kind of thing yourself Diane I'm sure you wont mind providing details of exactly what these safeguards are and how they protect children.

I'm sure you'll forgive my scepticism (after all doesn't your god tell you to forgive people) but much like the recent banking scandal I wouldn't trust an institution that has been shown to be corrupt to the highest levels and fond of cover ups just on their word alone.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 15:30:41 GMT
C. A. Small says:
DB- action was only taken when the cover-ups of the abuse finally stopped. The church did not disclose the abuse, they did everything, but everything, to stop these children getting justice. The catholic church cares more about its' reputation than anything else. It moved child rapists from parish to parish to avoid discovery. I am unware of any institution anywhere that has behaved in the same way. The catholic church is a moral vacuum and utterly repugnant.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 15:44:53 GMT
J. Forbes says:
No, Mr Small. They were just very forgiving. :-)

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Feb 2013 15:55:32 GMT
Bellatori says:
DB says: "Of course God is not proud of the way these men have acted...."

And how do you know this? An omniscient God could have stopped this had he chosen. Did Jesus not have something to say about harming little children? It would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall at the conversation between the two when Jesus found out his Dad was allowing the abuse to continue...

Posted on 14 Feb 2013 16:09:50 GMT
Watch Derren Brown Fear and Faith and then hang thy head in shame at the realisation that your mind is making up God to fill gaps you require filling.

Thats is all.
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  41
Total posts:  1324
Initial post:  11 Feb 2013
Latest post:  11 Mar 2013

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