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If I say: "GOD is talking to me" would you ...


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Posted on 30 May 2012 19:51:32 BDT
Lela says:
Sam

I also want to add that even for scientists it is very difficult sometime to change the Status Quo, even when they have the evidence that is so important to you. Take the work of Louis Pasteur as an example. Even science needs open minded individuals to be able to progress.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 20:06:55 BDT
Last edited by the author on 30 May 2012 22:02:08 BDT
Sombrio says:
Drew,

I was just messin'around in that last post to you. I appreciate your being so straight forward and honest the way you did. When you write things like, " your arguments are too unfocused, unsupported, erroneous and overtly emotionally manipulative,.... I'm making my feelings clear on how clear I like people to make their criticisms or apologies clear.",... well,no one can accuse you of pussy-footing around the place can they ?

I guess your clarity helps to highlight my own perception of the difficulties you and I often seem to find ourselves embroiled in. To me,.... you seem to take things just TOO seriously. Too heavily.

I keep trying to joke around a bit,.... not because I'm mocking you, or not respecting your viewpoint,.... but because the over-riding seriousness of what seems to me on this forum, (when all is said and done), to be just a bunch of people banging around expressing their feelings about topics that NONE OF US 'knows' the answer to. Your heavy seriousness makes me reluctant to get drawn too closely into debate. Like any doughy mixture, all this stodgy stuff we find ourselves stirring around NEEDS some leavening of humour and 'messin' around a bit' now and then, or it can end up tasting like cold porridge.

I don't use smiley faces,... but I do try to keep things a bit lighter sometimes, (even though I do believe in the things I'm saying every bit as much as you do)

Perhaps if we can be honest with each other like this, it might help a bit more with our mutual understanding. Sometimes a simple personality clash can inadvertently end up being taken as something far more seriously than it really is

It seems to me that that would be a shame if this happened in our case. A failure of two reasonable minds to be flexible enough to find some avenue of communication to talk through.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 20:24:09 BDT
richard says:
Lela,

you said, I thought I could do some good use of the lottery money, for the good of the society, but there is something about money that God does not like, so I never won it...

what if on the same lottery someone else had put their lottery ticket in their bible and won the jackpot? what if they then spent the money on having a great time and thoroughly enjoyed the rest of their life! what would that mean god wanted?

one of the interesting things about belief in god is that whatever happens it's part of god's plan. if you had won the lottery you would most likely have gone round telling people the story of putting the ticket in the bible with an inference that god saw that you won. you didn't win so there has to be a reason why god didn't make it happen for you. if someone prays to god and their prayer comes to pass then god has answered their prayer if not then god has other plans for them which answering that prayer would have interfered with. if a righteous person suffers whilst those with no respect for god live the good life then god must have a plan that explains it. testing the faithful and the sinners will spend eternity in hell or some suffering to come whereas the righteous will get their just reward at some point even if it's after death!

what if you had got two lottery tickets and put one in your bible and the other in a porno magazine (ok you might not have one but lets suppose you did) and the one in the porno magazine won the jackpot! what would that mean?

it just seems that it's a guessing game of what does god want and why does he do whatever happens. we can look to scripture but that's open to interpretation and various scriptures can be used to address the same issue but with different conclusions. one has faith in god but then again which god does one have faith in? maybe you didn't win the lottery because you should have put the lottery ticket in the Koran not the bible!

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 21:17:15 BDT
Lela,

There are some things that scientists think are likely, some things that they think are possible, and some things that they think are impossible. Michio Kaku wrote a book about it. Physics of the Impossible: A Scientific Exploration of the World of Phasers, Force Fields, Teleportation and Time Travel.

Imagination is useful as well as fun. I love imagination. But it's not enough by itself to determine reality. Science advances by people exploring and testing ideas, and many of those ideas fall by the wayside.
There's also a difference between thinking of an idea and then exploring whether it's true, and thinking of an idea and just accepting. "Well, it might be true" is no good reason for believing that it is true. Follow the evidence where it leads, don't assume the destination. If there's no evidence to follow, then "I don't know" is an acceptable position to take.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 21:18:36 BDT
I'm not going to disagree with that.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 21:30:57 BDT
Shakepen says:
CA: But according to internal evidence of the OT, the prophets were correct.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 21:33:55 BDT
Shakepen says:
Lela: Kudos! How true your statement is! Over and over, scientists have found their discoveries initially rejected.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 21:39:30 BDT
Last edited by the author on 30 May 2012 21:42:19 BDT
Lela says:
Richard,

If we read my post separate, it sounds as I am going around saying that I do not win lottery because God does not want. My post was in response to some previous posts with Spin, and so read separately is totally out of context.
Personally, I believe winning a lottery ticket is a matter of probability, whether you believe in GOD or not, whether you put it in Bible or the QURAN, or inside an academic book instead of the porn magazine you suggested, whether you win or not, it is all a matter of probability, has nothing to do with GOD... On the other hand, if someone prays to GOD everyday saying: "please GOD let me win the lottery" I think God would probably answer: perhaps you should buy a lottery ticket for a start.
What I am trying to say is that prayers cannot be fulfilled in a passive way...


"if someone prays to god and their prayer comes to pass then god has answered their prayer if not then god has other plans for them which answering that prayer would have interfered with."

I think that depends on the individual and the way they believe. Have you ever seen the schema of a Basic computer programme? Everything leads to a cross road: if yes, go there, if no go there, and it is a never ending process, it can go forward or in circles. What I am trying to say is that "God's plan" is not linear. If we pray to be accepted at a very good law school and it does not happen: We are faced with a choice: we can either abandon or do a bit more studying and apply the next year. We can abandon and be sad, or we can abandon and search new opportunities. If we reapply next year, we can make it an obsession or we can stay open to new opportunities. If GOD exists whether a person is a believer or non believer, GOD plan for him would be exactly the same, and non linear - so it is up to us to chose our path in life. The only difference is that we might live life with faith, or without. or part of it with faith, and part of it without. I have lived part of my life with faith in myself, part of it with faith in God, part of it with no faith at all, and part of it with faith in both myself and GOD.

" if a righteous person suffers whilst those with no respect for god live the good life then god must have a plan that explains it. testing the faithful and the sinners will spend eternity in hell or some suffering to come whereas the righteous will get their just reward at some point even if it's after death!"

The way you have expressed the idea of a God plan here, sounds quite religious in interpretation. I say religious because it is quite judgmental to other people and religion is very good at doing this - judging and punishing.
I said it earlier that God's plan to me is not linear, it makes no difference whether we are believers or non believers. What might change is the way we go through this plan and the decisions we take for ourselves and others.

"one has faith in god but then again which god does one have faith in?"
I have never heard anyone thinking that there is more than one GOD. Every religious person thinks that there is one GOD and that their religion is the way to GOD. Perhaps you mean in which religion? If you are interested in my answer to that question is simply to believe in GOD without becoming part of a religion.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 22:06:35 BDT
Sombrio says:
Lela,

"Every religious person thinks that there is one GOD and that their religion is the way to GOD"

Utter bollocks !

Please engage brain before posting witless, unsubstantiated tripe like this.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 22:19:43 BDT
Lela says:
Sombrio I am a bit lost with your comment. Are you saying that religious people think that there is more than one GOD?!

"Please engage brain before posting witless, unsubstantiated tripe like this."
how are you substantiating your opinion in your post? From your post I am not even sure what your opinion is?

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 22:57:14 BDT
Last edited by the author on 30 May 2012 23:06:25 BDT
Sombrio says:
Lela,

My opinion is that anyone who genuinely feels each person who feels that there is a 'religious' purpose and meaning behind this surface manifestation of life, (as we experience it),..... MUST necessarily believe in ONE god,... is either so unbelievably uneducated, naive, or blinkered within the narrowness of their own tunnel vision,... that they give the outward impression to others of "talking utter bollocks".

There are many polytheistic religions and non-theistic religions whose followers are every bit as convinced by their faith as you are by yours. You sound like your religious acumen possesses all the equivalent secular nouse as America's foreign policy.

Wake up, take off the horse blinkers, and look at the worldwide phenomenon of mankind's faith taking form in a million different forms.

Ask yourself,.... "Why do all these different forms exist ?" Surely it cannot be so simple as, "My religion is correct. All the others are wrong."

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 22:58:01 BDT
Lela says:
very interesting book. Kaku is trying to establish the theory of everything. What if this theory of everything can be possible only if a spiritual theory of everything is also part of it ?! Just a thought, not waiting for answers or to develop it any further:)

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 23:04:11 BDT
Lela says:
Sombrio, if your purpose in life is to show to others that you cannot master your reactions, then you have achieved that purpose fully.

But if what you wanted to say is that there are also religions that believe in more than one GOD, which I was not aware of, I think you could have just said: "There are many polytheistic religions and non-theistic religions, for example..." since you did not give some examples, I will have to look it up on the internet.

In reply to an earlier post on 30 May 2012 23:12:04 BDT
Last edited by the author on 30 May 2012 23:14:59 BDT
Sombrio says:
Lela,

How old are you ? You're telling me that hearing that "there are many polytheistic religions and non-theistic religions",.... is NEWS to you !! I can only shake my head and wonder where on earth you were hiding when most people were in school, where even the most hopeless dullards gained that much religious education.

Knowing the names of these other religions will be of no meaning or value whatsoever to you.

The interesting question, I repeat, is "WHY do all these different forms of belief exist ?"

Developing flexibility is the direction to steer if it is learning you aspire to,...not simply amassing doctrine and dogma.

Posted on 30 May 2012 23:19:21 BDT
Lela says:
Sombrio, I have passed the age that we enjoy to play with words and I try to look beyond the meaning of a "dictionary definition"...

You said that there are people that believe in more than one GOD. Can you name me one religion that does that?
Because even Hinduism that is considered a "polytheistic religion" per definition, does not say that there is more than one GOD, but that GOD can take different forms, people believe in different manifestations of the same GOD. So please name me one religion that believes in many GOD's rather than different manifestations of the same GOD.

I was very lucky to be free from religious education at school...

Posted on 30 May 2012 23:39:43 BDT
Last edited by the author on 30 May 2012 23:41:17 BDT
Lela says:
Sombrio, sorry but now that I learned a bit more about the "polytheistic religions", such as the "Chinese folk religion", I realise that you have missed completely the point of our discussion with Richard.

Here it is again for you:
Richard: "one has faith in god but then again which god does one have faith in?"
Lela: I have never heard anyone thinking that there is more than one GOD. Every religious person thinks that there is one GOD and that their religion is the way to GOD. Perhaps you mean in which religion?

The fact that there are people who believe in more than one GOD is irrelevant to mention in this context, because even the people who believe in "Chinese folk religion" do not have to choose which GOD to believe in, they believe in many GODs at the same time. Their real choice was to believe in "Chinese folk religion".

In reply to an earlier post on 31 May 2012 04:17:27 BDT
Last edited by the author on 31 May 2012 12:12:47 BDT
That book isn't explicitly establishing a theory of everything, only exploring what is possible and impossible according to what we know.

What is your definition of spiritual, and can you show that it's real?

In reply to an earlier post on 31 May 2012 04:34:36 BDT
Tom M says:
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Posted on 31 May 2012 04:50:40 BDT
light says:
Did God or some other Higher Power speak to Robert Plant and Jimmy Page?

I just watched an interview with Robert Plant, he was talking about how Stairway to Heaven was written, he said that Jimmy played on the guitar and then all of a sudden the words just flowed from the pencil he, (Robert) had in his hand. Robert also said that they were a channel for music.

I read that Jimmy was interested in magic and studied Aleister Crowley's teachings which included Hermetics and Qabalah. Jimmy had symbols sown onto his stage outfits, sun, moon, dragon... which have mystical meaning. I've been studying Kabbalah, Hermetics, and metaphysical principles for a little while now so I can see that some of the lyrics in their songs have mystical meaning.

The following are songs that were specifically mentioned for having mystical meaning:

Stairway to Heaven
Kasmir
Achilles last stand
In the light
No quarter
Song remains the same
Black dog
Nobody's fault but mine
Ramblin on
Battle of evermore

Thanks to Shuggie for bringing up Kashmir.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 May 2012 07:02:24 BDT
Isobel Ayres says:
"I have never heard anyone thinking that there is more than one GOD."

850 million Hindus would beg to differ. As would the ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc etc etc.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 May 2012 07:48:37 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Shakepen, Yes - and you know what I think of the internal OT evidence!

In reply to an earlier post on 31 May 2012 10:21:16 BDT
Last edited by the author on 31 May 2012 11:12:19 BDT
Sombrio says:
Lela,

Your steadfast determination to remain firmly entrenched in the narrow world of your blinkered religion, should, I suppose, be admired. Tenacity in the face of a multitude of 'wake-up calls' continually appearing around you, and all that,...

As to religions with more than one God,... see Isobel Ayres reply two posts below mine. As well as the 850 million Hindus, Greeks and Romans that she mentions, off the top of my head there are all the legion animist religions of the world.

To further complicate what would otherwise present such a lovely, simple picture if we could leave it in black and white,.... there are all the various forms of Buddhism, which believe that there are many gods,... but that NONE of them are Creator Gods, or in the least way worthy of worship.

And then, as one last muddying of the waters, you have the three ancient, Non-Duality religions, (Advaita, Taoism and Zen), which are profoundly religious,.... but which believe in NO GODS AT ALL !

Yet all this diversity can act as the most wonderful wake-up call for some people. The endless diversity of man's sincere attempts to explain the nature of his existence, if a person can ever shake themself free of the partisan devotion to the beliefs of whichever surrounding society they happen to be born into,.... can cause one to question whether it really makes sense that "One is correct, and all the others are in some degree of 'incorrectness' "

Perhaps all these beliefs, religions, and philosophies,.... are ALL equally valid ! (For the people who hold them and are satisfied by them). Perhaps, if you could combine every single religious belief in the world, (including atheism),.... together they would form the totality of mankind's striving to understand the nature of his existence, via thought.

Then, if you combined all the different trees in the world,.... together they would comprise the totality of 'tree nature' on Earth.

Do the same with shrubs, flowering plants, mammals, fish, weather, rocks, etc, etc,.

The take all these phenomenal number of strands each comprising millions of individual filaments,... weave every single one of them together,... and you would have a much larger strand comprising "Every form of existence on Earth"

As beyond imagination as this strand would appear to be, if we were now to do the same for each of the countless gazillions of stars, planets and everything else afloat in the Universe,.... and imagine all of this as "Conscious, living Awareness", (call it God, if you prefer),.... perhaps it would help put the importance of the individual beliefs you and I hold into a more balanced perspective.

In contrast, whenever I find myself reading certain individual's strongly held religious beliefs, (like your own appear to me),.... it brings to my mind the image of someone sitting down in the middle of the Sahara Desert, emptying his boots and finding an individual grain of sand which had been very noticeably chafing between two of his toes. He looks at this grain of sand, is aware of the great discomfort it had been causing until he had found it and resolved it's discomfort.

So conceives the idea that this grain is so unique, the removal of it so effective, the bliss it engenders so real,... that this grain of sand is more beautiful and worthy of profound cherishment, than all the countless other grains of sand he can see around him, stretching to infinity.

That is the nature of our human nature. The tiny rock between my toes is of infinitely greater significance, (to me), than even Mount Everest itself. (To me, again, of course).

All our sensory and mental apparatus is actually set up for 'relative truths'. It is the hard-wiring we have which enables all living beings to survive.

But man, alone, conceives this idea of 'Absolute Truth',....(which is unfortunately unknowable by any mind which is still imprisoned in dualistic thinking),... and so, when we try to conceive what this Absolute Truth must be, all we can do is believe it must be one of organised religion's ready-made, relative truths.... which have all been carefully constructed so that we are able to conceive them.

Organised religions are like beautifully crafted Chinese back scratchers. They are built to reach and assuage that itch that just will not go away,... yet which we just cannot quite reach on our own.

But once you've assuaged the itch,... don't make the mistake of setting your back scratcher up on a shrine and worshipping it. It's just a back scratcher,... built to bring you temporary relief. That's all religions are.

Here endeth the first lesson. It, too, was lovingly crafted purely for discard.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 May 2012 12:05:47 BDT
Ben Backstay says:
I would say Awesome !
I would enquire what He/She was asking you or us to do.
I am a Quaker and an avid follower of the work of the Jesus Seminar.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 May 2012 12:28:38 BDT
Lela says:
"I am assuming your religious heritage is protestant if Christian."
Actually is greek orthodox, my religious heritage... But I believe in GOD, and God does not have a religious heritage...

In reply to an earlier post on 31 May 2012 12:33:22 BDT
Lela says:
Hello Isobel,
The 850 million Hindus believe in different manifestations of the same GOD.
But then, that sentence I wrote should bee seen in the context - and the context was how people make their choice in which GOD to believe. In other words, as explained at a later post, even the Chinese folk religion that has more than one GOD, do not have the choice to pick up which one to believe in the list, their choice was the Chinese folk religion and all the GODs that were part of this religion.
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