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In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 03:05:10 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 03:16:04 BDT
light says:
thanks again gille,

I don't think the word metaphysical has to be limited to only 1 definition, it could be open to having a supernatural meaning "and" a rational philosophical meaning.

You said, "The existence of God could be considered a metaphysical one, but only if it is treated rationalistically."

I wouldn't want to limit the concept of God to "rational philosophy or empirical science". Science is not ready yet to understand God, IMO.

Yes, I agree with you, mysticism is hard work that lasts a lifetime, but I see that is what the bible encourages people to do. Maybe that is what Jesus meant when he said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it" (Matthew 7:13,14).

Subterfuge can be more destructive than an outright lie. How much more damage can be done than by telling people that all they have to do is to believe in God and not encourage them to grow thier inner-spirit. Sorry to get carried away.

thanks

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 03:07:27 BDT
F Cadell says:
What did Jesus say, light? .....

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 03:17:17 BDT
light says:
Sorry, I had to go and find it so that I wouldn't post it wrong. I added it, now you can go back and find out.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 03:21:59 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 03:36:23 BDT
light says:
Sam,

If reality is better, then why do so many people drink alcohol and take drugs to escape from it? People can reach that same feeling but without artificial stimulation.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 03:27:33 BDT
F Cadell says:
Great point light about the subterfuge. Yes its all about "take up your cross". On the other hand, "for my yoke is easy and my burden light". There is a need in Christian teaching to show the balance of joy and suffering in the Christian life. It is meant to be full of light, life, faith sharing and community joy and be freedom itself. On the other hand it is about getting on the spiritual operating table. But oh joy Jesus is the surgeon! We need to come to the truth about our sinful nature in parallel to accepting the bountiful and gratuitous nature of God's saving love. Hence The Eucharist.

Posted on 29 Apr 2012 03:32:09 BDT
F Cadell says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 03:39:22 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 04:00:43 BDT
light says:
F Cadell,

"for my yoke is easy and my burden light".

I think that the yoke of Jesus is not easy and the burden is not light.

It is very hard to tame the ego and be led by the spirit. It takes constant thought and a goal of communion with god.

You said, " We need to come to the truth about our sinful nature in parallel to accepting the bountiful and gratuitous nature of God's saving love. Hence The Eucharist."

I think that if it were merely as easy as participating in the Eucharist to be saved there would be many saved people in the world today because many of them take the Eucharist regularly. But Jesus was very clear about this when he said, ""Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" Luke 6: 46 and when he said, "My brothers and sisters are those who do the will of my Father."

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 03:50:26 BDT
F Cadell says:
Rather, it is very hard because we are slow to really ask for Jesus grace to overcome those trials which are too hard for us. We are not good at really receiving the medicine that He is.

When we (learn to) rely on Jesus for grace, then it becomes very easy. BUT, later, the hard part again is obedience, as in the Garden of Eden, because as we reenter Eden, then the older more "primeval" temptations return. Now we need the desert, and dark nights of the soul and the spirit, to reach the "seventh chamber" where we have finally manage to enter perfect communion with Him.

In short, depending on Him makes it easy, but then we have to decide for him, which is a new and harder trial. It is just like marriage in that the Eros aspect was important and remains important but only as a memory (!), and now the Agape part really contains a far deeper joy, but requires a deeper, humbler act of service as the fuel for the purer flame.

Posted on 29 Apr 2012 03:53:44 BDT
F Cadell says:
The Eucharist is only truly received when it coincides with the will to serve as Christ serves us.

Also, "Peter, unless you allow me to wash your feet, then you cannot serve me". We need the Eucharist, but what good is this food if we are not on the journey that requires It?

Posted on 29 Apr 2012 04:00:47 BDT
F Cadell says:
Sometimes The Eucharist only impacts to the point of "look how the salt has lost its taste". However that is the impact of myself to myself. The impact of Christ will remain "look how tenderly I love you", however sin causes us even to reject this medicine.

In my opinion, the Church obligation of attending Mass every Sunday is of great importance as a simple act of obedience to counter the disobedience of the Garden of Eden. Because in my experience, if you continue to attend mass through the "desert of your own sinfulness" then there is the possibility of a reigniting of the flame of God's love in the soul. Confession, for the Catholic, becomes very important at this stage, for this is a moment for attaining far greater humility than was previously possible.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 04:06:22 BDT
light says:
Is it easy for you?

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 04:25:18 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 04:27:07 BDT
F Cadell says:
Yes and no. See above. But spiritual life is never boring because it constantly draws us/me to the dynamic edge of my purposefulness. And this is also where the fuel for that life is to be found, hence the "easy" bit. Also, when I am more myself, as God make me to be, then I experience the "lightness". But, being married, with children also, I have to be in the world. However a harmony and joy is most certainly possible there as well when there is enough self-abandonment. How I love to be in the vineyard of new wine that is fatherhood!

Surprisingly I am currently reading quite a secular book on "people skills" which is helping me to focus on the fact that I need to be in the world, but also that even the world is a place of relationship rather than machines! I would like to help fix the machine that is corporation. The corporation is made for man, not man for the corporation.

So where is the "no" for me at this time. I'm joyful to say that I've reached a stage where I'm now convinced that freedom from sin is where happiness is at. Sadly this wasn't always the case. So now I am much more focused on trying to remove that deep darkness and sin that still lurks in my soul. Also, of course, there is awareness rather than denial, which is actually very positive.

So I'm entering the battlefield and if I can pass through it, will be running the race of St.Paul. All my fears will leave me and I will be roaring with the Lion of Judah (Jesus don't you know).

That won't mean I'm on speakers corner necessarily (but nothing is impossible for God), but rather I will know that wherever I am and whatever I am doing (except for sin, and no the pet shop boys are wrong about sin being in everything I ever do, but love the tune) then Emmanuel (God is with us) will be in my soul with the power of light and love that exceeds all the energy in the universe, however I will also be like a candle who burns out as am a human being. But my soul will be quietly gaining eternal freedom...

But the battle first. Why am I not afraid any more?

P.S. Also have to keep using alt 105 and alt 73 as the i key is not working on my laptop. Hardly qualifies me for martyrdom. But the little things, ay?

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 04:33:18 BDT
F Cadell says:
And for you, light?

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 06:34:54 BDT
What do you consider that I have no experience of?

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 06:38:40 BDT
Explain the process of enquiry and investigation through mysticism. Explain what can be discovered via this method.
Greater understanding can be gained by using the Hubble telescope and the scientific method, so show that there is an equivalent increase in understanding from mysticism.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 06:44:20 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 08:46:27 BDT
I didn't say that everybody's lives are great. Alcohol and drugs don't provide an escape from reality, they just provide a dulling or alteration of perception. The effects of drugs are still reality, but they allow the illusion of an escape from a person's situation.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 07:50:13 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 07:55:25 BDT
Sombrio says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 08:09:55 BDT
Ah. The old "You're not looking at it properly" argument. Always convincing, that one...

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 08:37:44 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 08:38:17 BDT
Sombrio says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 08:45:52 BDT
You didn't provide anything to consider. All you've claimed is that some people have written about mysticism, and that they're honest because you can just tell these things.
None of that shows either what mysticism is or that it's real. If you've got something better than personal accounts, obvious honesty, and your fascination, then present it.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 09:13:05 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 09:17:50 BDT
Sombrio says:
Sam,

To be honest, Sam,.... you're talking like an utter fool. I find myself writing increasingly rarely on this forum because of the phenomenal growth of nonsense exactly like you've just spouted. Please tell me that you're just saying stuff like you wrote out of a defensive habit. I've long felt that you were one of the regulars here, who actually had the ability and desire to step outside the comfortablle familiarity of their own opinions.

Perhaps I was wrong. Just try to take a more objective look at what you wrote :

"None of that shows either what mysticism is or that it's real. If you've got something better than personal accounts, obvious honesty, and your fascination, then present it."

I mean,... honestly,.... can you suggest any, even remotely conceivable way, that I could 'prove' to you what mysticism actually is,.... by writing a few words on an internet forum,.... from myself, (a person you know not the slightest thing about, trust, or probably even feel remotely drawn to) ?

If you choose to reply, please try and indicate in some way that you have actually heard and understood what I am trying to say to you. There's so many nutcases on this forum,.... please leave me with a few people remaining who seem to have eyes that can see and ears that can hear.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 09:28:08 BDT
You only see it as nonsense from your fixed viewpoint. Perhaps you need to try to understand other ways of seeing things.

You could begin by writing what you define mysticism to be. Without a definition, there can be no way to determine how to look for it.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 09:40:36 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 09:55:15 BDT
Sombrio says:
Sam,

I've already written what mysticism means to me. If you're not interested enough to pay attention or listen,.... what is the point of you and I spending our time sitting here in conversation together ?

But because I like to trust my inner sense that you are not simply yet another close-minded basket case, I'll copy and paste it out for you again :

"The thing which your writing leads me to believe that you know nothing whatsoever about is 'mysticism'. These are experiences in which many of the filtering and distorting 'mind-protection-devices', get temporarily removed and one gets a sudden inrush of a far bigger cross section of 'reality', than we have ever known before."

.

But please don't fall into this standard defensive tactic of trying to imagine that some mythical 'perfect definition', will suddenly open up a shared understanding of some topic.

The reality is, if two people don't like, trust, (or at least are trying to be open and honest), to each other,.... then no communication will ever be possible. It's in our human hearts where real connections lie,... NOT in the Oxford English Dictionary.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 09:59:04 BDT
Sombrio,

I had been paying attention to your posts, and that was why I asked you to define mysticism. I had read the section of your post that you have now reposed and it doesn't define mysticism. It says that sometimes one sees an undistorted view of a wider reality. But that's effectivelly meaningless. You haven't shown that our perceptions are distorted. You haven't shown the way in which perception is distorted. You haven't shown how you would determine that any such change in perception is from distorted to undistorted and not vice versa. You haven't shown how one would recognise a wider view of reality, nor what understanding is/has been gained from such a view. You haven't shown that people who claim such experiences have actually had them (except for their 'obvious' honesty).
There are far too many questions for this to be considered as a definition of mysticism.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Apr 2012 10:33:13 BDT
Last edited by the author on 29 Apr 2012 10:47:16 BDT
Sombrio says:
Sam,

Somehow I believe you are being honest in asking the questions you do. BUT, it really is a stretch for me to try and understand where it is that you're coming from if you are being honest. It's as if someone were to ask come up and ask you, "How do you know that you really exist ?"

One is just left shaking their head in amazement, and wondering how to communicate ideas that you had previously thought so basic to our existence that you couldn't imagine someone asking for a proof.

Anyway, I'll try to answer these bizarre questions which, for some reason, you've raised, (because you already KNOW the answers to them yourself, but are curiously pretending not to)

(1) [Q] "You haven't shown that our perceptions are distorted"

[A] In any social situation you have ever been in in your entire life, every single person seeing, hearing or observing what happens,.... will have a different feeling, interpretation, memory, etc of it. This is because we all have different personalities and qualities of mind and sensory apparatus. This is NOT some arcane mystery to ANYBODY ! Therefore, the only possible answer can be that everybody is seeing some personal distortion of 'What Is'. If we were seeing an undistorted view,.... then we would all see/experience the same thing.

(2) [Q] "You haven't shown how you would determine that any such change in perception is from distorted to undistorted and not vice versa."

[A] I haven't said, (nor intended to say), that mystical experiences are "undistorted". I am NOT saying they are some 'god-like' experience of omniscience. If you read what I said more carefully, I said, "one gets a sudden inrush of a far bigger cross section of 'reality', than we have ever known before."

"Far bigger",..... but STILL DISTORTED. We cannot know the totality of "What Is". But we can get an inrush of a bigger and less distorted amount of it.

(3) [Q] "You haven't shown how one would recognise a wider view of reality, nor what understanding is/has been gained from such a view"

[A] From accounts I've read, there's nothing a person can do to make mystical experiences happen, and though the experience seems to be virtually universally profoundly pleasurable, nothing is 'gained'. Be wary of trying to place every experience into some 'material' form of gain and loss.

Nevertheless, the testimony of countless people attest that mystical experiences DO happen.

(4) [Q] " You haven't shown that people who claim such experiences have actually had them (except for their 'obvious' honesty)."

[A] So how would you suggest I "prove" to you something that has happened in someone else's mind ??? I can't even prove to you that any particular thought or experience has happened in my own mind, let alone in someone else's.

Please think a bit more carefully about the things you write. Thinking can be pleasureable. Just talking for the sake of automatic negation and thus having an endless discussion/argument,.... is an utter waste of both our time.
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  27
Total posts:  335
Initial post:  23 Apr 2012
Latest post:  7 May 2012

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