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All Is Physical


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Showing 76-100 of 966 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 09:02:27 BDT
C. A. Small says:
N.Hutt- you were at a seance because you believed in this nonsense. You wanted it to be true so you accepted the wobbly table for that reason.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 11:10:39 BDT
ThulŽatan says:
Hi light,

"I think that the brain and mind are 2 different properties"

If we take the definitions you provided, mind refers to a particular set of functions of a brain. As such, 'mind state' would also be covered by the umbrella term 'brain state'. Think of the two terms 'car' and 'car engine': the state of the car includes the state of the engine. However, philosophically speaking, 'mind' has a much more subtle definition in that to account for what we see, hear, feel etc, we must include signals coming from nerves throughout our whole body, as well as light, sound etc from our environment external to the body. In this way the mind could be said to be 'more' than the brain, but all of this is still physical.

"what would happen if the brain could be transplanted? Where is the personality? Is the brain the only organ with a mind?"

If mind is defined as certain brain functions, then necessarily yes. The personality could be described as the behaviour of the individual. Since the brain generates behaviour, in theory a transplant of a brain would relocate the personality, consciousness, the works.

"Did you experience your lucid dream during a daydream or night dream?"

A night dream - and it seems to be easier to do at the tail end of a long and deep sleep.

"Are you checking to see if there is the possibility of something non-physical by practicing lucid dreaming?"

Well, I'm interested in all possibilities of the phenomenon, but I don't really know what 'non-physical' means so I don't know what I'd be looking for in that regard.

"Is there something specific that you have in mind of creating?"

At the moment, I'd like to create a dream where I can fly. A lot of people are fortunate enough to do this in their normal non-lucid dreams, but I never have, so I'd like to make it happen and also be able to plan where and how I'm flying :)

"Do you think it's possible for 2 people to plan a lucid dream at the same time and meet in the dream?"

Not at the moment, but I would say it's possible in principle, and if humans were interested enough we could probably achieve it. Neuroscience still has a long, long way to go before we'd see even the beginnings of technology like that, though.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 13:18:22 BDT
ThulŽatan says:
N. Hutt,

Without needing to go into the issue of your credibility at all, just ask yourself this: what is it that makes the phenomena you claim to have witnessed 'non-physical', as opposed to simply 'physical but relatively unknown'? What properties can it be said to have if not physical properties? The data that scientists won't look at, what does this data exist as?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 14:23:48 BDT
Last edited by the author on 23 Oct 2012 00:33:26 BDT
Tom M,

you say.................
The truth is that no progress has occured in reducing mental acts to physical things. In fact , what had to be done was to acknowledge their radical distinction from physical things ...................

i would say that there was no evidence that so called 'mental' acts were not physical manifestations within the brain to start with. lack of knowledge in how the brain works led to thinking that 'mental acts' were separate from the physical brain but i know of no evidence to support that assumption.

you say.............................But we see colour.

Do you see the problem this presents for physicalism? ................

no i don't see the problem.

you say....................................And free will. Most in the field are soft pedalling and avoiding this consequence of physicalism. Do you not see the problem? Like the evidence of the colour which , unlike most people who are studying mental events, you appear to have solved, you don't see evidence in free will. Perhaps you think that your thoughts are just the next unknowable quantum events linking to the big bang and are not disturned that the neurological events that take place within the realm of classical physics and are determined, remove your ability to freely make intellectual judgments. ............................

i don't see free will and don't think it exists. we perceive having free will because we think we make choices. you can never prove that having chosen A you could have chosen B instead.

you say..........................................
Far from being dead, Hume is alive and well in the subfloor of mechanistic thinking and indeed, your misplaced faith in physicalism. It's where it comes from. And as to Locke, his view of the processes of the mind are what the culture holds today, while in philosophy of mind, perhaps a little ironically, much of the criticism of the type I offer is now accepted by people in the field who acknowledge the distinction between physical and mental objects. .........................................

i do not have 'faith' in physicalism. i think that's all there is until i find evidence to indicate otherwise but it's not a matter of faith. Hume IS dead but i was saying that things have moved on in terms of what we understand about how the brain works from when he was alive.

what is a mental object? something that has no physical existence of it's own but exists through the processes of a human mind which conceives of such a 'thing' the mind being physical. a concept derived from physical brain processes? doesn't take a genius to recognise the difference between getting hit with a brick and an idea!

you say..........................
The problem remains. Acknowledging that mental events are of a different order than physical events, or brain events, a declaration of supervenience should come at the end of an argument, not the beginning, which is what you appear to be doing in that you haven't addressed any point defending physicalism. .....................................

mental events...................thinking? a physical process involving electrochemical processes.

i see no reason to defend physicalism. what am i defending it against? where is the evidence of non physical? you seem to imply that you have it but i don't see it.

you say.........................
In Plato's analogy of the cave, it is the world of sense experience or the merely physcal apprehension of reality, or perhaps physicalism as you describe it that he rejected as a dead end....................................i certainly did not understand it that way. he might have been warning against believing what you see or maybe taking things at face value and of the importance of investigation. he might have been thinking about the limitations of being human. but why a dead end

you say...........................His famous theory of forms is his answer. If you and I , separate and particular, entities, are yet also definable and idnetifiable as "human beings'. then we share a thing called humaness. We both, in this extreme realism share the idea of the human. Thus we isntantiate the form of human. We are matter ordered in the form of human. ..........................................

we don't share a 'thing' called humaness we have created a word to describe a relationship. it is not a thing. we share the idea (result of our physical brain processes) of being human by defining what it is to be human. a monkey might not perceive humans in this way at all nor any other species. some human tribes might also not share that definition. it might be said to be an arbitrary definition that has particular uses. but we haven't created a thing humaness. we are ordered matter and we have given our form a name.

you say............................Intelligence requires two principles. Not just matter, but mattered ordered intelligibly. The principle of intelligibility is the formal principle, or the action of the object, abstracted from the material by the action of our mind. .......................

does it. what is intelligence? matter that can think (has brain functions which are physical processes) and act. the action of our mind is physical!

you say..........................
The mind deals with universals, not the particulars of the senses. This is all evidence. This is why you cannot imagine the principles of triangularity. This is evidence. ...................................if these principles of triangularity can not be imagined how could we have conceived them? principles that we can not conceive.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 15:12:51 BDT
N. Hutt says:
The table movement was physical movement of the table of course, but caused by a force not known to obey Newton's Laws of Motion, because there was no physical force applied to it to make it move. If a critic says that is impossible, then I leave the debate, because I have proved that to my satisfaction several times and so have many others.
This force has been called various names by scientific investigators, 'psychic force ' by Dr Crawford, telekinesis, and psychokinesis for example. Crawford did many experiments to try to understand this force, and his results and conclusions fit with the experiments of other scientists like Crookes, Geley, Richet, and others. This force is only obtained when a 'physical medium' is present. It could be termed a physical but unknown force, or as Spiritualists say may be produced by a combination of the medium's own 'energies' and 'ectoplasm', which is used by the non-physical world to perform the various phenomena such as direct voice, transfiguration, materialisation etc. This is the data that scientists will not look at, from various sources. These phenomena should not happen according to the laws of Nature as discovered by science, which originally aroused my interest.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 15:26:49 BDT
C. A. Small says:
NHutt- have these movements ever been filmed?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 15:33:53 BDT
How does something non-physical interact with something physical?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 15:40:51 BDT
G. Heron says:
Tom M

". One of a few I posted dealt with things like colour or taste. Science informs us that everything is made up of colourless , tasteless teeny weeny things. This is fine.

But we see colour.

Do you see the problem this presents for physicalism? "

I certainly don't. It sounds like you can't understand how anything can be big if everything is made up of small things.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 16:20:05 BDT
ThulŽatan says:
N. Hutt - How do you respond to the fact that Derren Brown, for instance, can also appear to make a table shake and float *without* claiming there is any 'psychic force' at work?

I would add that just because something appears to defy known physical laws, that is no reason to postulate that it is 'non-physical' - nor does it render such a notion any more meaningful. It might just mean that there's more to physics than we've discovered yet. Or, more likely, that someone has a talent for illusion and special effects.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 17:43:58 BDT
N. Hutt says:
Illusionists and conjurers are nothing to do with what I said. I just said what I experienced, which for me was meaningful even if as yet unknown physics was involved, and it was not non-physical, or spiritual, forces or energies involved. I'm not trying to convert anyone, you would have to try it yourself to make your own mind up, but I gather that it would not interest you as a phenomenon. I have no talent for illusion or special effects nor did the others present.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 17:45:53 BDT
N. Hutt says:
Yes and I have videoed these movements myself, however films can be faked or not believed as genuine

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 17:50:03 BDT
N. Hutt says:
Is 'psychic force', if it exists, physical or non-physical in your terms? I'm not a philosopher

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 17:50:31 BDT
Films also, presumably, wouldn't pick up anything non-physical.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 18:00:03 BDT
I don't want philosophy, I want science. 'Psychic force' tells me nothing except, perhaps, what you call the non-physical something. I'm not even sure that 'force' is an appropriate word to use for something non-physical.

I want to know what the mechanism is by which something non-physical affects something physical.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 18:06:09 BDT
C. A. Small says:
NHutt;"I have no talent for illusion or special effects nor did the others present. " you forgot to finish with "as far as I know".

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 18:07:22 BDT
C. A. Small says:
You have video'd these movements and have you posted it so we can see it? You tube?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 18:41:18 BDT
Drew Jones says:
They can also be analysised to see if they match up to your claims or reveal any trick you missed.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 20:12:41 BDT
N. Hutt says:
I would like to know too. Dr Crawford's book 'The reality of psychical phenomena ' gives a theory based on his experimental work with a medium in about 1910.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 20:15:23 BDT
N. Hutt says:
Films and photos can pick up what are said to be psychic photos, ie 'extras' which shouldn't be there physically

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 20:29:17 BDT
N. Hutt says:
I have posted some clips on Youtube, but they are of no value as proof to those who did not attend because hands were on the tables as they moved and slid about and tilted. I tried to do the same movements by pushing with my hands flat on the plastic table top, but was unable to do so due to friction of the table legs on the stone floor and my hands slipping on the table. Sceptics only have to say that the medium was pushing it by some trickery which the video did not pick up. I have not had an opportunity to video a table moving on it's own as yet, I've only seen that happen once, in my own seance room at home

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 21:04:26 BDT
Drew Jones says:
"I have posted some clips on Youtube, but they are of no value as proof to those who did not attend because hands were on the tables as they moved and slid about and tilted."
As a scientist, have you ever recreated and overcome done of the experiments devised in the 19th Century to show the effects of the Ideomotor phenomenon?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 21:07:01 BDT
So you don't have any idea of the interaction between non-physical and physical. I can only assume, then, that you claim to have observed only the effects of such interaction. The wobbly table of your example.

That being the case, in order to confidently claim that the effect is the result of something non-physical, you would need to have eliminated every physical possibility. Could you list all of those possibilities and outline how you ruled out each of them?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Oct 2012 21:07:48 BDT
Photography is a physical process. Can you see where this is going?

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Oct 2012 01:15:33 BDT
light says:
Hi Thuleatan,

I read an article today about how different areas of the brain reacts during prayer and mediation and that there is a difference in reaction between atheists and those who believe in a Higher Power.

So it appears that those who believe in what they are doing have a noticeable reaction in the brain. Since you are practicing lucid dreaming you must believe in the possibility of finding what you are looking for otherwise you wouldn't be spending your time doing it, right?

The power of the mind is interesting.

You said, " we must include signals coming from nerves throughout our whole body, as well as light, sound etc from our environment external to the body. In this way the mind could be said to be 'more' than the brain, but all of this is still physical."

Do you think that there is a possibility of our minds reacting to a greater mind, like that of the universe? A Universal mind that we have the ability to react to and learn from if we are trained to do it?

Mental illness seems to be prevalent including: depression, anxiety, addictions, pedophilia, all forms of psychological, physical and sexual abuse, alzhiemers, autism....the list goes on and on. Do you think that there is information that can be accessed during lucid dreaming which may give understanding on how to heal these issues?

You said, "Well, I'm interested in all possibilities of the phenomenon, but I don't really know what 'non-physical' means so I don't know what I'd be looking for in that regard."

By non-physical, I mean, something out there that science has not been able to detect as of yet. Something in the Ether or the air that contains information that can be accessed if someone is properly trained.

You said, "At the moment, I'd like to create a dream where I can fly. A lot of people are fortunate enough to do this in their normal non-lucid dreams, but I never have, so I'd like to make it happen and also be able to plan where and how I'm flying :)"

Why fly when you can transport :D Beam me up Scottie!

You said, " Neuroscience still has a long, long way to go before we'd see even the beginnings of technology like that, though."

I think you are right about that. I think that individuals will achieve this and possibly have already, before science will.

Ok, if you ever want to conduct an experiment let me know and I'll see if I can help.

take care light

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Oct 2012 06:45:01 BDT
Tom M says:
Hi N Hutt

Your free will is consistent with this as we could not have free will if it were physical.. which means controlled by physics or chemistry. No neuron contains intentionality either.

Logic is not physical and our minds employ it , intelligible objects that cannot be reduced to something physical.

I know that there are a number of parapsychological studies also affirming the spiritual in a more empirical manner, although everyone experiences their own free will and its freedom is implicit every time someone is found 'guilty' of breaking a law as it is assumed that they were free to do otherwise. We all know this stuff. We just get it beat out of us thanks to whatever popular philosophical trend is passing through town.

We are all naturally ordered towards higher ends and all recognize love as the highest value, even if we don't usually practice it. On the scientific level, you might like The Quantum Enigma: Finding the Hidden Key or Wallace's remarkable book to restore science and rational philosophical thought, for all theories must be expressed in philosophical terms.. words.

The Modeling of Nature: Philosophy of Science and the Philosophy of Nature in Synthesis

Cheers
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Initial post:  19 Oct 2012
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