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God Does Not Exist Because. . . (2)

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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 21:38:56 GMT
Last edited by the author on 1 Mar 2012 21:40:02 GMT
Less Entropy says:
MJB says, 'Personally, I see our awareness as a product of the mind which is, in turn a product of the brain and in particular our use of language.'

I would beg to disagree with this. Do you not think that a chimpanzee is self-aware? Or a dog? Or a cat? Or a baby, for that matter?

They may not be philosophers or even capable of talking (much) but I suspect that they 'feel alive' inside in a way that a camera does not despite forming an image electronically. Of course, as I annoyingly said, I don't think we have any way of judging that - not even of each other - i.e. you may well all be Turing machines created by those white mice.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 21:39:16 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 21:53:08 GMT
Diane,

Thank you for your post. What I meant by the phrase I chose to use was; Some (can we assume I mean some but not all for brevity each time I say some?) theists would argue that every word in the Bible is correct. The history given there is to be read as historical fact. When I challenge that view, based on evidence from a variety of sources, the other party sometimes turn to insults rather than rational debate.

If we think of the flood story. I would argue that when the Bible speaks of the "water was on the Earth" I would suggest that it may refer to a local disaster that may have covered the whole of known world rather than the actual complete globe. Some seem to take such a statement as an attack on their faith and I have had several very insulting responses on this forum as a result.

It sometimes seems as I have attacked them personally because that belief is so dear to them. As I often say, personal belief is a matter of choice, history is a matter of accumulated facts. The historical facts may be challenged and changed through new discoveries, but a "religious" fact seems to me to sometimes be immune.

Cheers
Mark

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 22:00:28 GMT
Bert Einstein wrote - "I too can make photocopies on my printer!"

That is not really the same thing is it? If your photocopier could go and get all the parts it needed, from raw materials, and make another working photocopier which could do the same, increasing the number of photocopiers with each generation, you would have had a point.

A cell is quite a long way up the ladder where life is concerned. As mentioned by Less Entropy it actually contains something that was once an independent life form.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 22:28:59 GMT
Less Entropy -

Yes I think that a chimpanzee does have a certain sense of awareness as does a dog cat and baby, but they do not have anything like the same sense of awareness as a human that has learnt to use language has.

The chimpanzee, dog, cat and baby have (I would argue) a mind and brain but lack the final ingredient necessary for considering anything even remotely close to "why are we here" or "what happens when I die" which requires the extra ingredient. To even consider that level of question needs language.

The question of what we can know about what it is like to be you is another fascinating area of philosophy. Does pain felel the same to you as it does me? Do you experience the same thing when looking at a red tomato as I do? If you could experience what I experience when looking at that tomato, would it seem the same, or would you think that there was something wrong with the tomato? The area of phenomenology has kept philosophers arguing for a long time.

The most famous example was Descartes and the thought experiment that led to his famous phrase "Cogito ergo sum" or "I think therefore I am". He imagined that an evil demon was tricking him. Everything that he experienced was an illusion created by this demon. If this was the case, what could he say that he actually knew? Hence his answer. I would suggest he went too far and should have stuck to "there is thinking". The modern take on his "Mediations - 1641" is that you are really hooked up to a computer that is generating all the signals you perceive as experiences. The film The Matrix used this premise rather well!

Cheers
Mark

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 22:30:45 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 22:40:10 GMT
Last edited by the author on 1 Mar 2012 22:43:41 GMT
Bert Einstein -

Thank you for clearing up the difference between the Laws given in the OT and how the apply, or rather don't, specifically, to Christians. Which is why a Jew would not wish to eat a pork chop or sea food pizza but a Christian may if they wish.

As the description of homosexuality as an abomination in the Laws given to the nation of Israel, why does it still apply to Christians? Was it condemned by Christ?

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 22:42:53 GMT
K. Moss says:
Just read the d**n post, Bert!

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 22:43:01 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 22:46:46 GMT
K. Moss says:
Yep, I know.

Fear of Amazonian deletion has caused me to moderate my terms.

Still, it adequately made the point, didn't it?

Talking of that general area of the body...just wondered how yer ears are faring?

By the way, hoping to be down in Kent in the near future (Margate area). Make sure you drop me a line using those points of contact - very happy to buy you a beer or seven.

Kevin

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 22:48:33 GMT
Last edited by the author on 1 Mar 2012 22:58:07 GMT
Bert Einstein -

Just because life is complex now, it does not follow that it was always that way. Please have a read of the article I gave a link to (I'll repeat it below). It may help explain where you have made an error in your post. I was speaking, as I suspect you know full well, of the ladder of evolution!

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

PS Is there any need to add the insults each time you think you have pointed out a mistake? Should I be posting something along the lines of "... You idiot, you really don't understand do you? You are a pig headed ***" ? Or do you, like me, feel that approach isn't especially constructive?

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 23:01:12 GMT
K. Moss says:
Hi Mark.

I agree. I think that there have been times when perhaps circumstances must have led persecuted Christians to hunger for the end of suffering, and hoped for an imminent return of Christ. The WTS took this quite a bit further (although they've not been the only ones) and made specific, dated predictions. I think they've learned that particular lesson now, unlike Harold Camping. I have just bought my wife Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy, and am as keen to read it as she is - it is almost impossible to put oneself in the metaphorical shoes of conscientious individuals living during the time of the Third Reich, seeking to remain true to their faith. I am sure that such individuals must have dearly wished for Christ's second coming.

The significance of the OT is something that doesn't get discussed here, other than to supply a kind of ready-made baseball bat to bonk Christians over the head with. There is a great deal of significance there for Christians, however. I am just about to start reading Old Testament Ethics for the People of God, which is a bit of a tome, but a very thorough treatment. I know this isn't your bag, but Chris is a very competent theologian and clear writer.

And I think you are correct about the idea of the 'rapture'. I have not checked other translations (although I suspect this would apply there also), but the word does not appear in the ESV. The concept appears to be arrived at by extrapolation - and it seems to me odd that some groups make so much of an idea which at best is a function of inference.

Thanks for your posts. Always enjoy them, and the spirit in which they're couched.

Regards, Kevin

Posted on 1 Mar 2012 23:02:22 GMT
Bert wrote - " Let me know if you find anything alive, smaller than a cell."

The unkind side of my nature would be happy to point out something I suspect to be smaller!

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 23:19:39 GMT
K. Moss says:
EthelBert.

I know why JWs "give up their time, get ready with their family and come to my door".

I've seen copies of the forms they have to submit to the Organisation, to substantiate all the hard work they put in, which will form the basis of their record of performance as 'good and faithful servants'. They could just stay at home, but then the WTS would tell them that they would lose their salvation, wouldn't they?

And, just for once, I'd like to state once and for all, that JW's don't have the monopoly on outreach. It's true that the rest of us tend now to avoid doorstepping, as most normal people are sick of it. We just find other ways which are, culturally, a more natural fit. We use our facilities for bridge-building with the local community. We run english-language classes for asian families. We run after-school homework clubs, holiday clubs, provide hospitality to students, run lunch-clubs for the elderly, host mother-&-toddler groups, help out in prisons and hospices, provide debt-counselling, and clothe and feed the homeless. And we don't need to fill out forms to prove anything.

Our own little church has been running for 20 years. We've grown from 200 to 1,000 members in that time, and we have planted no less than five other churches in South Wales, each of which took around 35 out of our family, to form a working nucleus. There isn't some kind of magic to door-knocking. Indeed, we have churches working in environments which JWs give a wide berth to. I am sure that there's oodles more that we could or should be doing, and no doubt a bit of what happens is a bit half-baked occasionally - but at least it's happening, and (I think) for the right reasons.

Wake up, Bert. And stop keeping coming out with this misrepresentative drivel about what you *think* other Christians are about - as it is very, very far from the truth.

(Sorry, got a bit irritated there. I'll try not to do that again)

Kevin

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 23:34:46 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 23:36:24 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 23:40:09 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 23:42:36 GMT
Last edited by the author on 1 Mar 2012 23:55:15 GMT
This is a lie. Not all ex JW's are dismissed for immorality. They are also dismissed because they have broken the rules of the men in the grey suits who sit hidden behind closed doors setting themselves up as judge and jury according to their legalistic man made rules. They see themselves as an authority above Christ. They are called 'The governing body' and you better believe that they run their 'religion' like politicians in a worldly government.

Yes, you say 'dismissed from their job'. Spirituality is not a 'job' which is a worldly term usually dependant on earning money. Of course all the lawyers who deal with the lawsuits brought to the courts by abused JW's children (the silent lambs) I think they are known as, are dealt with by their lawyers in a very legalistic way. I wonder if Jesus would approve of that!

Oh yes, these legalistic religious people were about in His day - they were called the Pharisees.

Your post reveals a coldness of spirit.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 23:44:27 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Mar 2012 23:50:06 GMT
You say 'If people get the sack or are dismissed from their job - there is always a reason - their conduct is under question.'

Haven't you heard of 'unfair dismissal'?

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Mar 2012 00:26:51 GMT
Mr Einstein
I have attended many meetings at a Kingdom Hall. The congregation is taught the doctrines of the Watchtower organisation who have published many of their own books for the purpose of indoctrination.

Yes any member of the public can attend the meetings which will initiate the brainwashing process, so of course they are encouraged to go.

You say 'there is a ministry school meeting where the entire emphasis is on presenting Bible topics to the general public.'
-Yes, it is an exercise in 'marketing' with a view to selling their product - the watchtower and of course = the resulting money that will be recieved from their members. Money is the objective of all marketing strategies and this is no different.

The Jw's give up their time and come to your door because they have been indoctrinated to do so. If they refuse then they will be hit by the Watchtower's 'shunning' policy which will isolate them from their JW's friends and family and has been the cause of suicides and despair. There are more ex JW's in need of psychological councelling as a result of Watchtower legalistic policies than any other organised religion.

The governing body is more interested in your money than your spiritual welfare. Where is their concern for the above mentioned 'shunned' people or the orphaned children whose mothers died when giving them birth by refusing a life saving blood transfusion due to the watchtower policies.
The internet has a list of mourning families and friends who have lost loved ones and posted details of their deaths so that they will not be forgotten and to bring the results of this death policy to the public's notice.
There is much blood on the hands of these so called religious leaders!

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Mar 2012 00:31:15 GMT
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Posted on 2 Mar 2012 00:39:14 GMT
Last edited by the author on 2 Mar 2012 00:39:41 GMT
Strange how you avoid answering any of my posts. Remember 'hiding' or 'hidden' means to occult or occult.

The truth has nothing to fear and comes out into the light. What do you fear Mr. Einstein?

In reply to an earlier post on 2 Mar 2012 00:41:25 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 2 Mar 2012 00:44:49 GMT
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