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Why I lost my faith in the pro-choice movement -- a very thoughtful argument.


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Posted on 19 Nov 2012 14:41:24 GMT
Spin says:
Do not let emotion colour ones reasoning.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 14:41:26 GMT
Last edited by the author on 19 Nov 2012 14:44:03 GMT
Ah you have managed to totally say nothing about my post Tom, in yet a quite lengthy reply.

Ok First.

Hitler was about as anti abortion as a leader gets, though as you say for his own people only whom he wanted to outbreed the lesser races.

This is detailed quite well in Mein Kampf.

I will concede though that if a child had been born with a deformity, they would have been killed quite quickly.

Secondly that he had no regard for lesser races children, forget abortion, the man was responsible for sending babies and young children into gas showers.

Completely different topic altogtether from abortion in my and I would imagine most eyes.

He was a subhuman, who ironically loathed what he thought of a sub humans.

He was not for abortion amongst his people and he was not in any way that we can say atheistic (The new abortion crowd as you call them).

so why keep bringing him up?

He was a catholic and he got aid for his officers from the catholic church, that satement however much it riles you and angers you is 100% factually accurate.

You can sell all the positives of catholicism all you want, but you cant deny those words are fact.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 14:47:54 GMT
"The rest of your post, on top of the known misinformation, is just inchoherent nonsense P and not worth responding to, not that the first part was, but I should have read the whole thing first and not wasted time."

Translation:

I'm completely unable to offer a counter argument.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 14:48:16 GMT
Tom M says:
It looks like our friend P here who really objects to laws declaring that human life begins when human life begins.. the "scientific" appraoch has failed to note or consider or even be remotely aware of the connection between contraception and abortion.

Almost half of the women in the US seeking abortion are using contraceptives regularly.

Abortion is the killing of a human being. The contraception myth is just that.

It's actually just all about getting the little orgasms; exploitation. Engaging in what should be creative acts of love between committed persons without the love and commitment entailed in the very nature of the act.

The 'contraception' movement in the US was developed by Sanger to make sure fewer blacks were born. She had the same fine Darwinian eugenic instincts as Hitler and many of the fascists in England.

Posted on 19 Nov 2012 14:52:35 GMT
Spin says:
Obviously history is an important factor in mankinds reasoning about what is right amnd what is wrong. What should I do? Well, lets see what folk did in the past...

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 14:53:15 GMT
AJ Murray says:
You'll find that Tom M uses the argumentum ad Hitlerum quite a lot, it's because he lacks a reasonable response.

Posted on 19 Nov 2012 14:55:27 GMT
Dan Fante says:
The last thing anyone wants is the exploitation of little orgasms.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 14:59:32 GMT
Drew Jones says:
"Hitler was the first modern leader of note to recommend abortion, admittedly only for his enemies."
I see you have slightly amended this claim yet still get it completely wrong. The Weimar republic came before National Socialism in Germany and allowed for abortion. Hitler withdrew support for it.

Posted on 19 Nov 2012 15:02:38 GMT
And we've already told Tom about Hitler's views about abortion (it was a crime against the so-called 'master-race', worse than rape, incest or - shock! horror! inter-racial marriage).

Perversely, he pretends it never happened. I wonder why?

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 15:03:49 GMT
"Almost half of the women in the US seeking abortion are using contraceptives regularly.

Abortion is the killing of a human being. The contraception myth is just that."

* About one in 10 women at risk of unintended pregnancy are currently not using any contraceptive method. The proportion is highest among 15-19-year-olds (19%) and lowest among women aged 40-44 (8%).

So 1 in 10 women not using contraception account for nearly 50% of abortions. But contraception doesn't help eh Tom? What you failed to account for is far more than 50% of women of child bearing age are using contraception, so those not using it are massively over-represented in the abortion numbers.

/facepalm.

Posted on 19 Nov 2012 15:04:29 GMT
Spin says:
Does not our "just" society strive to cure disabilities and illness? Is not the aim to create a population immune to disease and disability? Do only Nazis believe in, and strive for, physical and mental perfection? Dream on.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 15:33:17 GMT
Thats my point Drew, he just thinks he can shout about anything that drops itno his head and then he gets all blustery and annoyed when people point out he's wrong.

Utter turd.

Posted on 19 Nov 2012 15:49:09 GMT
Spin says:
QED.

Posted on 19 Nov 2012 15:50:56 GMT
Tom M says:
Fascinating how so many are so determined to cast the whole abortion debate into a 'religious' issue. It is perhaps, for those who don't have much to work with a little confusing, but abortion is no more a religious issue than is the loathesome practice of capital punishment, or any other precepts based upon the supposed rights of man.

Theism is the only coherent basis for ANY argument for actual human rights.

Atheism, by contrast and with a huge historical evidence of monstrous indifference to human life, provides no coherent worldview on anything.

But more to the point, intellectually dishonest people present abortion as a 'religious' issue because they historically have never ever wanted to confront the cold 'scientific' facts about human life.

People who will assent and be silent on abortion are like the good citizens of Germany who didn't ask too many questions about what was going on behind the walls in their cities. They were cowed into silence, although the Catholic church did a pretty good job of standing up to them even in Germany.

Just as was the case with the movement towards hospitals and caring for the weak and ill was started by Catholic cultures, and just as universities first breathed air in the universe in Catholic settings and just as international law protecting the rights of peoples originated in Catholic nations, along with the rights of the individual to fair legal proceedings as developed in Spain to protect people unjustly accused, and as in so many other areas, the Catholic worldview has shaped the western world and indeed Catholics in alliance with other Christian and people of honest good will all over the world oppose this crime against humanity itself, abortion.

But the opposition to this slaughter of so many babies is no more a religious issue than any other fundamental human life.

It is the abortionist, like Fatman, who seems to have disappeared from these pages , who denies the human life its actual due and kills the boys and girls for his 'living'. It requires no great scientific insight to know how we all began our lives as human beings.

There was no time when we were anything else from the first instant. I say instant, because there was no T 0 (Time Zero) to T 1 during which conception could occur or the development of a new human life would be only a change of accident and not substance.

To steal the entire lifetime of another human being is an unspeakable monstrosity.

Most people react to these known facts with cowardice , or worse, actively promote abortion as the cost of orgasms. In the end it is a materialistic cult of orgasm that defines the abortion crowd, and the ever so trite and unserious 'new' atheism is again, just the pseudo intellectual backsplash that reveals itself as dissembling rhetoric , seeking to do with the universe and Justice, what it does with human life.

The not so new at all atheism is the ageless cult of predation and consumption as children, babies' bodies are laid in the arms of Moloch to be burned as cult sacrifice.

The small plumes of smoke we see rising from our hospitals is not unlike the smoke , the human smoke of Auschwitz. So, like in Germany , where the Catholic church and the pope were particularly hated and where at times the only voices were raised against the nazis and modern godless national socialism, the modern cult of dominance and consumption equally detests the moral law and those who defend it.

So they say that abortion is a 'religious' issue. It is of course a matter of murder and cowardly silence.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 16:00:37 GMT
"So, like in Germany , where the Catholic church and the pope were particularly hated and where at times the only voices were raised against the nazis and modern godless national socialism, the modern cult of dominance and consumption equally detests the moral law and those who defend it."

The only voices, wow

Pity those voices were all silent when secert matters were being discussed post war in terms of allowing the SS officer to escape to far off Catholic Countries where they could battle Communism for the Pope?

Also National socialism itself was not against religion, neither was Hitler or most of the German people who were all either Catholic or predominantly Protestant.

Himmler was anti God and perhaps some of his men became so?

who knows for sure, all we know is that Himmler was a Pagan and Hitler was a Catholic.

stop using it Tom, consult with the other God botherers and come up with some new material, The Hitler, Nazi references just make you look completley ignorant and illiterate towards the history of WW2.

(He'll like being called illiterate, just watch, next Feser and aristotle are getting mentioned).

(dawkins in about 3-4 posts)

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 16:02:04 GMT
Dr HotFXMan says:
Paul,

"I contacted Amazon concerning this ongoing business with Maxwell"

You're a liar - you did no such thing. And perhaps you didn't notice but they were YOUR posts that were deleted.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 16:06:30 GMT
Spin says:
Tom: Indeed. The giving and taking of life has nothing to do with religion, poltics or media culture. Unfortunately, the west thinks according to the value of profitable physical and mental production, not the value of life itself. We kill to survive. Unlike other species humans will willingly kill their own, be they in the womb or be they pawns in a standing army..

Posted on 19 Nov 2012 16:07:54 GMT
Quite.

And I still have Amazon's email dated 30/08/2012 informing me that Tom's posts had been deleted, and that he was going to be cautioned.

He doesn't seem to have taken the hint.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 16:26:15 GMT
K. Hoyles says:
Tom - What a load of old tripe, get out into the real world and talk to some women for a change, instead of making up bizarre fantasies about Auschwitz, cult sacrifice and the 'materialistic cult of orgasm'. Don't you know how out of touch with reality you are? I realise people like you won't be satisfied until women are back in the kitchen without a vote or any freedom to speak out on issues that have a huge impact on their lives, and the lives of their families. These issues have been hard won, despite people like you and your church, who have been the main cause of misery to countless women, and men, throughout history. You will never persuade the majority of women to give up their freedom. So continue with your weird fantasies, no-one is listening.
K

Posted on 19 Nov 2012 16:41:26 GMT
Spin says:
Us Men have been trodden on for so long, by profiteers and capitalists, we do not what the hell is going on. But I know a woman loves a man, not a societal structure..

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 16:49:35 GMT
Drew Jones says:
"Theism is the only coherent basis for ANY argument for actual human rights.

Atheism, by contrast and with a huge historical evidence of monstrous indifference to human life, provides no coherent worldview on anything.

But more to the point, intellectually dishonest people present abortion as a 'religious' issue because they historically have never ever wanted to confront the cold 'scientific' facts about human life. "
Are you arguing that theism is the sole basis for establishing human rights therefore providing the only protection against abortion or are you saying it's intellectually dishonest people present abortion as a 'religious' issue?

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 17:01:02 GMT
Spin says:
Drew; are you for or against abortion as a civil liberty? Let me guess your response; "F off, spin".

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 17:32:40 GMT
Drew Jones says:
I think the abortion laws in place reflect a measured response, I'm in broad agreement with them. If you wouldn't mind returning to the subject doing one won't be necessary.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Nov 2012 17:33:00 GMT
DB says:
Ryan
As you probably know, hitler promoted the arian race and this master race was instructed to reproduce.
He did not need to support abortion for others, because he used sterilization and eugenics against those he thought weak.

Over 400,000 were sterilized.

Posted on 19 Nov 2012 17:37:23 GMT
You owe John a few answers, DB.

Settle your account there and come back.
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  19
Total posts:  93
Initial post:  6 Nov 2012
Latest post:  26 Nov 2012

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