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Why do Christians consider the Judaic holy books to be relevent to thier religion and its theological justification?


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In reply to an earlier post on 28 Dec 2012 22:06:28 GMT
Spin says:
William; I have learned that anyone who says "verily I tell you.." "Thus it is written" is not to be trusted. Jesus did not rely on texts or their interpretation to complete his mission. So why should "Christians"? Is it it Jesus or the words about him you believe and have faith in?

Posted on 28 Dec 2012 22:33:45 GMT
Spin says:
"I believe in Jesus" and "I believe in the Gospels" are two very different statements.

Posted on 28 Dec 2012 22:40:19 GMT
Spin, I'm always free to discount anything written about Jesus which is inconvenient to me. I've heard that some of the Deists used to go through the Bible and cross out anything they didn't agree with. But if I choose to do that, then I might as well not bother believing in Jesus at all. I have good reason to believe that the Scriptures were written by people who saw the events with their own eyes, who were willing to die because they believed in the truth of it (men aren't usually willing to die for something they know to be a lie), and which by all the normal methods of historical enquiry are reliable and worthy of respect in a textual sense. Indeed, quite a bit more so than many other documents we accept as being definitive. That being the case, I must move on and make whatever theological sense of them that I can.

When Jesus first preached in the synagogue, he read from the Book of Isaiah and told the congregation that that prophecy was fulfilled in their sight. He said that He didn't come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it. When he was tempted in the desert by the Devil, he answered every time with a quotation from the OT. Even when he was on the cross about to die, he laid claim to being the Messiah by crying out an exact quotation (and universally recognised Messianic prophecy) from Psalm 22 "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!". Any rabbi who heard those words knew exactly what he was claiming, instantly.

We can eat pork and need not sacrifice goats anymore because these things were laws of ritual purity and sacrificial atonement which are now fulfilled. They don't apply anymore because the event which they anticipated has now occurred. It would be like continuing to send out wedding invitations after the wedding was already over. Out of the 600 and some-odd precepts of the Law, quite a few of them were of that kind. Others are Moral Law and still every bit as much in effect as they ever were.

And if you don't trust what someone says, then the obvious answer is to go look it up and check to see whether they told the truth or not. If they did, well and good. If not, then correct them.

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Dec 2012 22:48:58 GMT
Spin says:
Willioam: I have spent many years "looking it up". And despite myself, I am still caught in the debate. Perhaps one day a sect will form which actually adheres to the mission of the Jesus proposed by the disciples.. Until that day comes, I will argue for Jesus the man, and refute Jesus the God.

Posted on 28 Dec 2012 23:24:23 GMT
Spin says:
"Why do you call me "Good"? There is no-one that is good except the one God..." (Matthew 19:17)

Posted on 29 Dec 2012 07:07:42 GMT
athanasius says:
The Roman Catholic Church is the Divine instrument of the Holy Spirit and as such is Christ's Church on earth...even the gates of hell will not prevail...

Posted on 29 Dec 2012 07:09:56 GMT
athanasius says:
Present day Judaism bears no resemblance to the Judaism at the time of Christ.The Judaism of Christ was sacredotal and today it is rabbinic. Hence Christianity is older then Judaism end of

Posted on 29 Dec 2012 10:04:43 GMT
End of what - reason? Facts?

You don't half talk nonsense, A.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Dec 2012 11:03:55 GMT
Last edited by the author on 29 Dec 2012 11:11:56 GMT
Brendan says:
Spin,

You say, "Is it it Jesus or the words about him you believe and have faith in?"

So on what then do you base your knowledge of Jesus in? The entire New Testament consists of words written about Jesus, the Gospels being recounts of His life by others. Short of find a 'Gospel according to Jesus', written by Him, about Him, all you will get is words written by others about Jesus. There were, as you know, many different Gospels, but the Church chose the Canon of the 4 because of the connection between the Jesus in these Gospels with the God of Israel, the Creator, the one God. Gnostics and others also chose different gospels, with a very different emphasis, but nevertheless, those gospels were also words written about Jesus by others. If you discount written accounts of Jesus then surely you must also be sceptical about the existence of Jesus?

Going by your logic of discounting what is written, because it is simply someone's account and therefore cannot be trusted, you discount all the books of the Old Testament as well. In fact you discount any form of scripture.

What is left then? A purely experiential, personal belief, based upon absolutely nothing other than a feeling you get? Any dream will do?

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Dec 2012 12:49:13 GMT
Brendan says:
Spin, Christians are only bound by the Covenant of Christ. Christ's message is for all peoples equally, and his Covenant was between God and all mankind. How can Christians be bound by the laws of the OT when the OT laws were formed as a basis of a Covenant specifically between God and the Jews? Jesus and St Paul were not just preached for (and to) Jews. they were not just preaching Salvation for the Jews, but for all mankind. Of course the old laws would not apply. As you know, Christians are only bound by the Great Commandment and the Covenant of Christ, not by and Covenants from the Old Testament.

Yes Jesus was rejected, despised, convicted and executed, but that was foretold in the Old Testament. Jesus was also entirely innocent. Through carrying this out, the Jews were playing their part in fulfilling Old Testament prophesies. All this prophesy can be found in Isaiah's Suffering Servant passages.

The Old Testament is central to Christianity, not because of the Laws (as you seem to be a bit hung up on) but because of the prophesies.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2012 19:43:27 GMT
Spin says:
Brenden: I do not claim to have knowledge of Jesus. No-one can claim so. But any person who can read can have knowledge of the concept of a "Christ". I differentiate between Jesus the Man and Jesus the God. Christianity is quite knowledgeable about Jesus the God, a knowledge that can be quiestioned and disputed, but it knows very little about, and cares less for, Jesus the Man.

In reply to an earlier post on 31 Dec 2012 19:49:08 GMT
Spin says:
Brenden: If the OT prophecies are so worthy of attention and study, why do you adhere to christianity and not Judaism? The NT was written to conform to certain aspects of the OT; events were exaggerated, places shifted in time and space and more meaning as regards the OT built into them. Why, if you thonk the OT is a superior source of the "proof" of Gods will, do you not convert to Judaism?

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Jan 2013 03:35:33 GMT
Nokes says:
Yeshua was a travelling Rabbi, going about from place to place, followed by his "Talmidim", or disciples. The term "Rabbi" was the official title of someone in charge of a synagogue. It was also used loosely to describe anyone with a good knowledge of the Torah who used to teach others on a regular basis. It was quite common in those days to have travelling "Rabbis" followed by their "Talmidim". The objective of a Talmid was to learn everything his Rabbi could teach, become like him, and then become a Rabbi himself. It was a hard life, with few physical comforts, and when Yeshua called his Talmidim, saying to them "Follow me", they knew exactly what he was calling them to.
He taught that he had not come to destroy the Torah, or the prophets, but to fulfil it. (Matt. 5:17). This is commonly misinterpreted to mean that Yeshua replaced the Torah. It doesn't mean that at all. When two Rabbis are arguing, and the argument becomes heated, one might say "You are destroying the Torah" and the other would say "No, I am not destroying the Torah, I am fulfilling it" (meaning I am interpreting it correctly or making it stand upright). Yeshua goes on to say "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". A "jot" is the smallest Hebrew character, known as the Yodh. A "tittle" is a small point on the corner of a character, even smaller than a Yodh.
Check John 18:38 its a mind blower......The Son of God answers Pilate regarding who He was, He said: 'for this I was born and for this I came into the world, to witness to the Truth'.......definition of Truth: Psalms 119:151...'All my commandments are Truth'.....There is no NEW Covenant, only a Renewed One, man messed about with the Old One, the Son of God came to correct His Father's Instructions in Righteousness. Rome invented Christianity and removed the truth of the EVERLASTING Covenant, removed the Hebraic teachings, even from the Bible and even created they own version of the saviour and call Him 'Jesus', a very different person with a different idenity to the real Messiah, Yeshua, who kept Torah, kept the Food Laws, kept the Feasts, kept the seventh day (Fri sun down to Sat sun down) Sabbath etc etc. So.....If you study these things outside mainstream Christian writings you will be amazed at the deceptions and lies. Paul said 2 thousand years age....'the mystery of Iniquity (Law-less-ness) is already at work'. By the way, Hebraic teachers know Paul to be a Torah keeper till the end. What Paul was trying to reach them with was the New Way that the Torah would be written on their hearts by the now available Holy Spirit. If anyone is interested in digging deeper into finding more truth, buy the book or download the kindle for 'Only A few' , this book exposes every lie and every twist propagated by the Roman Catholic Church, which the protestant church have continued in. Available on Amazon, you won't regret it. Shalom
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  8
Total posts:  38
Initial post:  27 Dec 2012
Latest post:  1 Jan 2013

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