Customer Discussions > religion discussion forum

Is the mendacious Theistic accusation of Atheistic belief a facile attempt to validate their own irrational belief?


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1-25 of 1000 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 19 May 2013 12:15:58 BDT
O.Binladen says:
So many theists use this duplicity, and use it so often it's fairly obviously an attempt in their own minds to rationalise their own irrational beliefs, isn't it?

I mean they rarely used the accusation where it's true, against other religious believers of a different religion. So they obviously think that if an Atheistic worldview is based on beliefs, rather than the truth that it's based on a logical rejection of faith in the absence of evidence, then that somehow validates their beliefs.

Posted on 19 May 2013 14:09:09 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 May 2013 14:52:12 BDT
O.Binladen says:
It seems 2 people feel my opening posts adds nothing to this thread discussion, though they're being fairly taciturn about the nature of their objection, which definitely doesn't add to the discussion of this topic. So getting back on track, does anyone have a more valid reason why Theists so often make this palpably false statement about Atheism being based on beliefs? I've never heard any compelling evidence for the assertion, so the motive appears, at face value anyway, to be a disingenuous attempt to show that belief is the only valid way to uncover truth. Of course would create the paradox that if they were right Atheism would at least as valid as theism.

My very taciturn critics are persistent it seems. It's a shame they have nothing of value to say.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 15:04:55 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 May 2013 15:08:48 BDT
Tu Fu says:
OK Mr BinLaden, I'll bite! I am not a theist myself, but I can see that some of the very dogmatic materialist statements coming from Dennett, Dawkins etc. have all the hallmarks of blind prejudice. I can also see that they feel that scientific objectivity is threatened by the equally blind prejudice of US christians. I feel however that their approach to criticism of religious belief is self defeating. You're pre-emptive reference to mendacity doesn't help either. (PS I have noticed that these forums seem to rapidly descend into personal attacks - if that happens I am not going to waste any further time here).

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 15:40:52 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 May 2013 16:13:49 BDT
O.Binladen says:
In fairness I qualified my accusation of mendacity with my request for evidence to back up the assertion, pointing out that to date I'd not been offered any compelling evidence. I've heard the accusation that Atheists being as vocal, as we traditionally have expected theists to be, is self defeating though, I'm not sure I agree, perhaps you can try to convince me. I can't promise in advance how I'll react to something that hasn't been posted yet, but I'll certainly treat posters who are respectful to me, with respect.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 16:19:15 BDT
Alan Pavelin says:
Perhaps the reason theists (of whom I am one) talk of atheism as a belief is that atheists invariably seem to think that religion is purely a matter of belief. If you believe, you follow it, if you don't, you don't follow it. But there is a whole load of reasons why people actively belong to a faith, of which belief in particular doctrines may, or may not, be the most important. A person may come to accept everything that a faith teaches, yet not join it because he feels no particular inclination to do so.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 16:24:40 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 May 2013 16:26:14 BDT
Henry James says:
Alan's point is a good one.
If if people say they believe in the same God - say the Methodist one - they all are almost certain to have very different conceptions of what that God is, and a big part of why people go to church is to be part of a Community, and many of those communities are very supportive and loving. (and I guess, in the UK, the number of people who DO actually go to church is less than 5% these days?)

There are of course loads of theists with whom one can have a most productive and honest discussion about spiritual issues, and about the nature of the God they believe in.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 16:25:31 BDT
O.Binladen says:
Not sure I follow that, what specifically in Atheism requires a belief? As an Atheist I try to base what I do or do not accept as true, or valid, on evidence, if I'm actually using belief then it's certainly not intentional. So this might help me eradicate any beliefs from that process, assuming of course there are any.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 16:28:54 BDT
O.Binladen says:
Not sure how that addresses the topic of the thread to be honest. I'm after an evidence based explanation of what theists think are Atheistic beliefs.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 16:29:19 BDT
Henry James says:
OB
I guess one could validly say that you and I
"believe that one should not accept propositions unless there is some evidence for them."
The obverse would be
"believe than one should accept or reject propositions intuitively, whether there is evidence for them or not."
Words.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 16:35:40 BDT
Henry James says:
I think that Alan was saying that theists react to atheists saying
"your faith in God is 'just a belief'"
by saying
"well your rejection of God is just a belief too."
Kind of like saying in the playground
"so's YOUR mother."

His point that many theists don't believe exactly what their church's doctrine says is meant to say that those theists are less likely to call Binladen's position "just a belief."

It doesn't exactly address your thread topic, and it doesn't contradict it, but it adds nuance.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 16:40:19 BDT
O.Binladen says:
Ok but none of that shows any beliefs that Atheists have, simply saying Atheism is based on a belief, or beliefs, isn't really showing me what theists think those beliefs are. It's possible of course that the theists in this thread thus far don't think that Atheists base anything on belief.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 16:49:02 BDT
Henry James says:
You are correct, OB
there IS no *substance* to the theist retort, other than a very narrow and unintelligent use of the word "belief."

It is a "so's your mother" kind of retort.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 16:58:05 BDT
O.Binladen says:
I have started this thread to give every opportunity for any evidence to be presented, as I've already stated I've not heard any compelling evidence to validate the claim thus far, but at least no one can accuse me of being close minded. In the future when the accusation is made I can at least point to this thread and the lack of evidence to back up the claim, unless of course valid evidence is presented.

Posted on 19 May 2013 17:12:41 BDT
Tu Fu says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

Posted on 19 May 2013 17:18:41 BDT
A belief is something people have when they lack proof. Spot the flaw in your logic here.

Calling atheism a religion is like calling ker plunk an olympic sport.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 17:19:55 BDT
Alan Pavelin says:
I think that, for most theists, they belong to a faith because it works. By analogy, maybe atheists (at least of a proseletysing kind) are such "because it works", at least for them. I am not for one moment advocating a relativistic view, just offering an observation based on most Christians I know.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 17:23:53 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 May 2013 19:01:02 BDT
O.Binladen says:
I was hoping for a bit more "meat on the bones" if you see what I mean.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 17:42:32 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 May 2013 17:46:38 BDT
O.Binladen says:
Not sure what you mean by "works for them", I am an Atheist because all the evidence indicates that assertion is correct. If I've based that on belief rather than evidence, as the accusation that inspired this thread asserts, then this is an opportunity for those who make that assertion to present evidence. Of course if that evidence turns out itself to be based on a belief or a deduction that presupposes a belief is correct then that won't do I'm afraid.

Posted on 19 May 2013 17:45:47 BDT
Tu Fu says:
Oh well, if you don't want to engage with my point there's nothing more I can do. Bye.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 17:56:28 BDT
Alan Pavelin says:
I don't think most people arrive at these positions, whether theism, atheism, or anything else, through "evidence", though it may play a part. It is more of an instinctive intuition, perhaps even wishful thinking (yes, for atheists too). When I say it works, I mean it meets their needs in one way or another, so to that extent it is based on experience, which is a kind of evidence.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 18:04:32 BDT
Drew Jones says:
I'm an atheist not because atheism works* but because theism in all it's forms doesn't work except maybe at an emotional level.

* it doesn't even make sense to think of it as something that works.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 18:19:39 BDT
Alan Pavelin says:
How do you know theism doesn't work, have you tried it?

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 18:24:41 BDT
Thing is, are you basing this premise on the basis of some less than Christian theists who appear on this forum? In my experience they neither think or make any such accusation.
I am basing this on having met, known and spoken with hundreds of theists in my time. Admittedly, in the grand scheme of thing this is hardly a majority and includes none from the USA. All the same I feel extrapolating my findings to the majority is not unreasonable.

I do think it is a bit adversarial to describe the beliefs of a theist as irrational. Often two scientists presented with the same eveidence will reach different conclusions without anyone being irrational.

There is belief on both sides, one the belief that God does exist, the other the belief that God does not exist.

The difference lies in that the theist will - not always, but - more often than not have a belief system i.e., religion whereas the atheist just goes his own way in the main. (or even on land for that matter)

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 18:29:58 BDT
Tu Fu says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 19 May 2013 18:33:22 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 May 2013 19:52:32 BDT
Drew Jones says:
I don't know how you try theism as a singular entity but you don't try claims about the nature of reality. Validation doesn't require consent.
‹ Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 123 Next ›
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in
 


 

This discussion

Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  67
Total posts:  3068
Initial post:  19 May 2013
Latest post:  15 Sep 2013

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 4 customers

Search Customer Discussions