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Atheism:Is ignorance and prejudice and bigotry enough?


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Showing 1-25 of 34 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 24 Apr 2012 19:57:28 BDT
Tom M says:
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Posted on 24 Apr 2012 20:29:17 BDT
Taking bets on a deletion by Autumn...

Posted on 24 Apr 2012 20:34:56 BDT
DB says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 24 Apr 2012 22:12:57 BDT
tom m, if the universe is created by God then everything in it is perfect and part of the grand plan including homosexuality, abortion, the Spanish inquisition.......etc. This life is a fleeting visit and everything in it is for our benefit. A real theist accepts everything as the will of God.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Apr 2012 22:27:16 BDT
Tom M says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 24 Apr 2012 22:30:21 BDT
Tom M says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 24 Apr 2012 22:37:02 BDT
Jim Guest says:
No. You need muscle.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Apr 2012 22:40:17 BDT
Pendragon says:
"You need muscle".

No, YOU need muscle.

Weedy grot.

Posted on 24 Apr 2012 23:37:06 BDT
Last edited by the author on 24 Apr 2012 23:55:02 BDT
No I don't think you are really monotheists. I think monotheism requires a much greater degree of faith than is required by the systems you mentioned. God is everything or nothing. I don't say that true theism doesn't exist within these systems - Meister Ekhart for example, but it is rare. Usually these systems seem to have more to do with politics than faith and to produce division rather than harmony.
It's all ok though because it's all part of god's grand plan - so in some way these partial religions must be playing their part.
As an absolute theist I have absolute faith in this.

Posted on 25 Apr 2012 01:30:35 BDT
Tom M says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 01:38:21 BDT
Jim Guest says:
'Catholicism for instance is the immediate presence of God.'

Now that really would fill their trousers.

Posted on 25 Apr 2012 01:38:40 BDT
Jim Guest says:
Will.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 09:35:20 BDT
"Are mathematical truths true when no one is thinking them? Are they physical things? Is logic physical? How much does the principle of non-contradiction weigh? How about truth and beauty?"
Here you appear to be attempting a Transcendental argument for the existence of God. And this argument holds no water. Things are true even when they are unthought, yes. But being true and existing are very different things. A materialist can account for transcendent truths, it is only a strawman of the position that cannot.

"At the end of the day, the 'new' atheism noise is mostly about things like abortion or the idea that its just fine for men to attempt to have immitative sex with other men. "
Actually new atheism was mostly a response to islamic terrorism and creationist legal attacks on education. It was a response to the liberties of the irreligious being eroded on the grounds of religion.

"to explain, order, reason, purpose , meaning, value, love, and intelligence, they offer disorder, un-reason, no purpose, no meaning, no value, no love, and no intelligence. "
Do you want the things used to actually explain those things?
Order: Physical properties of matter and energy
Reason: Evolved processing of information in the brain.
Purpose: No purpose exists external to concious agents
Meaning: No meaning exists external to concious agents
Value: Value is ascribed to things by conscious agents
Love: Love is a biochemical and neuronal effect of a concious agent over other objects (usually conscious agents)
Intelligence: Like reason, is data processing within evolved brains.

"Atheism is mostly ignorance and prejudice elevated to the status of virtue, "
No, Atheism is mostly a willigness to think about the big ideas. Is there a god is a question that has been forced onto memeber of society by the religious and the default position on that is "I don't know". The theist never provides any reason to move closer to yes but the lack of any coherence to the position provides plenty of reason to move towards no.

"We have seen some hundred and thirty million murders from atheism in the last hundred years,"
No, No you haven't.

"and of course this is not counting the youngest who were killed before they could draw their first breath."
Abortion is only murder if you vastly pervert the meaning of murder.

"If a person will kill their own child in the womb, what will they not sink to? "
Most pro choicers are theists. Most theists (in the UK and the US) are pro choice.

"We should no expect any honest dialogue but as Williams accurately asesses, only ignorance and its father, prejudice. "
I agree, but it will be coming exactly the opposite way.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 09:37:05 BDT
You can misrepresent my positions as often as you want Tom, but I'd honestly love to have an honest discussion with you on the central topic.

Start one thread, with one argument that a god exists or that atheism is incoherent . Stick to the argument and let's see how clear and reasoned your position is.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 14:19:23 BDT
Spin says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 16:14:06 BDT
So what you are saying is that God permits everything but only 'wills' certain things. It is his 'will' that we have free will and that means that we often oppose his will. Have I got that right?

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 16:19:09 BDT
Spin says:
T: If there is a Deity, he/she/it does not care what you personally believe or how you personally act. To be a "good" person, is not to argue a point but to liv the reality of your conviction. God created you as you are; it is up to you to as to whether you use that to help others or use it to argue against those whose idea of divinity extends to a showing of "Britains got talent" =)

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 16:21:23 BDT
Mr G, I am not interested in making either of the points you have suggested that I make. Other people have made these points over and over. It is not for me a case of which set of views is right and which wrong. It is that views are just views. I am far more interested in the way that people argue than in what they are arguing about. The ways in which people construct their version of reality are fascinating to me. So I am struck by the similarities between factions.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 16:22:35 BDT
Spin - I couldn't agree more.

Posted on 25 Apr 2012 16:26:21 BDT
Spin says:
God gathered men as his disciples and He detests women. Women are corrupt (=0). Women are so regarded by the church as to have a seperate faith worshipping the Virgin. bUt women are base, ignorant and the cause of sexual sin. Really? Shame on the Virgin mary! (Sex with a virgin, God is a lucky so-and so. eh? She can't compare him to anyone else...)

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 16:35:21 BDT
Last edited by the author on 25 Apr 2012 16:37:49 BDT
Isobel Ayres says:
Very mediaeval view of women, isn't it? Women in early madiaeval times were considered lustful and base and degraded, and men were to guard themselves against them. Men were considered the pure ones. This view only began to change with the wandering minstrels, poets like Chretienne de Troy and the cult of courtly love, and then eventually ended up with the Victorian reversal - irreproachable pure womanhood and predatory men.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 16:52:00 BDT
Jim Guest says:
That's this pagan world- lurching from lie to travesty, and back again, skipping the sensible, frightening middle position.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 16:54:45 BDT
Isobel Ayres says:
Pagan, now, is it? I thought your usual position was we're all Christians and just pretending. Make your mind up, boyo.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 16:55:26 BDT
Spin says:
Isobel; Yes, but as foul as women are, the Virgin mary is worshipped. The perfect woman; she who refrains from any involvement with reality. Hmm...

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Apr 2012 16:57:22 BDT
Jim Guest says:
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  10
Total posts:  34
Initial post:  24 Apr 2012
Latest post:  27 Apr 2012

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