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Why I lost my faith in the pro-choice movement -- a very thoughtful argument.


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Posted on 26 Nov 2012 11:46:26 GMT
Honestly maybe mitt Romney was right. Cooperations are people. cooperations shouldn't swing anyway otherwise they'll lose customers.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Nov 2012 11:10:00 GMT
AJ Murray says:
Dissident,

-"AJ Murray, you are contradicting yourself. You accuse others of the association fallacy;"

I accuse 'Tom M' of it because that is exactly what he is fond of doing.

-"You then make the same association fallacy yourself with "Hitler was a Catholic" and "Catholicism has stood for dictatorships," etc."

I don't think so. The association fallacy is when you dismiss another persons argument through an unsavoury association. Facts are never fallacious.

-"Even if Hitler could be described as 'Catholic' simply because his Mum had him baptised, it does not prove a causal link between his Catholicism and his actions in WW2 any more than his being a painter does."

Since i never said that it did, your criticism is misplaced.

-"Even if some Catholics have supported dictatorships in the past it doesn't prove a link between Catholicism and dictatorships any more than saying that because some atheists have also supported dictatorships, therefore atheism supports dictatorships."

The institution of the Catholic Church has supported dictatirships, including its own. It has a long history of being on the wrong side of human rights - even today it advocates against the extension of rights to others, that fact is not fallacious and nor is pointing it out.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Nov 2012 07:11:41 GMT
Drew Jones says:
I remember, you were so intend on demonising them for being atheist therefore an abortionist they were hesitant to discuss it and only did so to show how mistaken your loudmouth Catholic assumptions are. They haven't posted recently because of it. I'm sure they will be further delighted to know it meant so much to you you can't remember it properly.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Nov 2012 02:04:33 GMT
Tom M says:
OH sorry Hugh. Who was it that some months ago described a difficult situation met heroically, do you know? I apologize for the error if not the possibility of the nobleness of heart.:-)

Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Nov 2012 00:40:33 GMT
"I shoud also mention that Hugh was very upfront about the tempations and challenges to one's beliefs and values when presented with a child suffering severe deficits. He very bravely and courageously rose to the life of his child to support the baby."

If you are referring to me "Tom"; then you are mistaken, I have no children.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Nov 2012 00:02:12 GMT
Last edited by the author on 26 Nov 2012 00:13:08 GMT
Tom M says:
Hi Spin, .. good point. You made me think of Christ stating. "Let he among you who is without sin, cast the first stone."

In the west to deal with the problems surrounding sexuality, we encourage children to have sexual relations, feed them pills and pastic which fails and leaves them pregnant and then murder their babies.

In muslim nations, they seek to deal with the problems and difficulties of sexuality and other temptations by removing them, hence the veils and long garments.

Hence some of the other bad practices of genital mutilation as well, although I don't know how extensive that practice is.

So a woman who conceives a child out of the natural relationship for the raising of children incurs the heavy responsibility of raising a child alone and with a much reduced prospect of marriage and normal life.

This same burden in the west is why they actually murder the babies.

I don't know the relative statistics for stone throwing vs murders in the west, but I suspect a lot more murders occur.

I also don't know what the child murder rate in muslim countries is but I hope it is much less.

I shoud also mention that Hugh was very upfront about the tempations and challenges to one's beliefs and values when presented with a child suffering severe deficits. He very bravely and courageously rose to the life of his child to support the baby. Good for him. Inded talk is cheap and I used to be on the wrong side of this issue.

It is also true that one of the would be atheists here, when I pointed out that Fatman is an actual abortionist was horrified that I would make so terrible an accusation. Good for him too.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Nov 2012 23:53:04 GMT
Tom M says:
Hi Spin

Excellent description of this crime against humanity. I wonder if most of them as children ever considered that one day they would stand by as kids are sliced up by digging into the womb? I have been watching classic movies all day. Particularly liked "Cat on a hot tin roof." with Newman and Elizabeth Taylor. I can see why she won the best actress award that year.

Cheers and good for you for standing up for the children and against the depravity.

Posted on 25 Nov 2012 21:04:54 GMT
Spin says:
Condemn muslims for stoning women while allowing your women to abort the life you value so much...

Posted on 25 Nov 2012 20:49:11 GMT
Spin says:
Intentionally taking a life, be it human or animal, because it offended you or upset your lifestyle in some way. is immoral and illegal. Yet abortion is considered "moral" and is legal. You have banned capital punishment, the intentional killing of persons guilty of serious crimes, but allow the intentional killing of the innocent. You argue for the "Right to Life" but reserve that "Right" only to "Life" existing outside the womb. You proclaim the wonders of DNA and cellular development to our children in school while at the same time considering such processes as nothing but disposable phenomena. Hypocrites.

Posted on 24 Nov 2012 23:03:40 GMT
Tom M says:
Abortion is genocide," King said. "It's killing populations. It's killing generations and certainly the population that is most impacted by abortion in America is the black community. So I feel that as a civil rights leader I have responsibility to proclaim that black Americans are being exterminated by the genocidal acts of abortion."


Ed Melone said he came to listen to King speak because his passion is anti-abortion activism.


He said he was troubled by the fact that even though African Americans make up about one eighth of the population, they have more than one-third of America's 1.2 million annual abortions.


"In the previous centuries, we fought over the identity of a person based upon his or her skin color," King said. "With the passage of Roe v. Wade in 1973, the identity of a person became linked as well to gestational size. So to call a person not a person because of his or her skin color or because of his or her age is a civil injustice, and my uncle said a threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Nov 2012 23:01:26 GMT
Tom M says:
P

Apparently in permanent disconnect... WHAT IS WITH THESE PEOPLE.

Apparently the targetiing of abortion and contraception on the blacks is not an issue for such as P.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Nov 2012 22:51:52 GMT
Tom M says:
Thanks for the lengthy reply P

You missed the point however.

The cult of the orgasm does indeed reflect the low-life, conscienceless creep who sleeps with a girl and never gives a thought to whether or not he has conceived a child in the process.

This is the creep who supports abortion.

And it is, .. .and read this slowly so you perhaps get the point this time....

It is this reduction of the whole of human procreation to a behavior reduced to the orgasm that renders this in a PERFECTLY justifiable manner to be labled the CULT OF THE ORGASM. If you wish to argue my point, then please feel free to actually address it, and not your own notions which I haven't argued.

Posted on 24 Nov 2012 17:22:02 GMT
Obelix says:
Medical science is about curing the sick and alleviating suffering.

That Spin manages to conflate this with Nazism is simple idiocy on his part.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Nov 2012 17:21:50 GMT
Dissident says:
P, Plato was a Theist, not an Atheist. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle all believed in one Creator God as did their followers. Epicurus and some others were Atheists. They all regarded Greek mythology as myth.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Nov 2012 17:18:14 GMT
Dissident says:
AJ Murray, you are contradicting yourself. You accuse others of the association fallacy;
"Hitler was a painter and a Nazi.
Person A is a painter,
Therefore Person A is a Nazi"

You then make the same association fallacy yourself with "Hitler was a Catholic" and "Catholicism has stood for dictatorships," etc.

Even if Hitler could be described as 'Catholic' simply because his Mum had him baptised, it does not prove a causal link between his Catholicism and his actions in WW2 any more than his being a painter does. Even if some Catholics have supported dictatorships in the past it doesn't prove a link between Catholicism and dictatorships any more than saying that because some atheists have also supported dictatorships, therefore atheism supports dictatorships.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 16:24:04 GMT
I never made the claim spin, I asked the question, you just answered it thanks.

So Tom never returned to this thread?

Telling

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 15:37:20 GMT
Last edited by the author on 23 Nov 2012 15:53:03 GMT
Drew Jones says:
'Tom M'. William Lane Craig. DB. The Pope.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 15:31:36 GMT
Spin says:
Tom: Hitler instigated the genetic research society now finds so beneficial. There is little difference between modern medicinal and genetic science and the nazi ideal of human perfection.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 15:24:21 GMT
D. E. Ortiz says:
"That's the great thing about theology - you don't need to bother with facts, data or even arguments to arrive at a conclusion. You know it's reasonable by virtue of being your belief and anyone who doubts or questions it can be readily dismissed" Straw man argument.... care to tell me how you came up with this rubbish?

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 12:18:52 GMT
Spin says:
Cam: you are mistaken; read "De Caedo" 271.33 and "De gen. et corr" 336.32. and Book A of "Metaphysics". Aristotle does not ascribe purposeful action to a deity.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2012 15:28:03 GMT
Wait are you saying Aristotle was an Atheist.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

THanks for the posts.

I am now certain that Tom will not be back intp this thread, at least not to discuss your post, he despises when people use real facts and uncertainties to show where he is cutting corners and making things up.

Lovely

Reply Tom?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2012 15:22:04 GMT
This was Hitlers philsohpy discussed in Mein Kampf.

And also one of the reasons Toms wrong about HItler.

Hitler said that the 'lesser' races (his words never mine here people) were breeding faster thena the tarditoional European ruling classes, eventually they would suprass and subjegate the Europeans. HIs plan was to promor promiscuity in his people especially those married in order that more white Aryan children were born so, they could outbreed the lesser races (obviously he also wanted to kill them off, but this was not mentioned specifically at this point)

One of the reasons why saying Hitler was pro abortion is not true at all, he was Anti abortion, he was pro Babies, as long as they were the right colour and creed and when they were not, well thats not abortion, thats genocide.

Would not suprise me if people really thought this needed to be done.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 07:21:58 GMT
K. Hoyles says:
I shall miss your informative posts. Good luck with the dreaded tax man!
K

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 04:02:11 GMT
Last edited by the author on 21 Nov 2012 04:39:35 GMT
P says:
Tom, your commitment to the Catholic Church may reasonably lead you to defend its moral teachings, it may even lead you to conclude that all the claims made for it by any member must be true, but you should know that some of the statements you make are disputed by others.

For example:

"The earliest surviving encyclopedia of medicine in Sanskrit is the Carakasamhita. This text, which describes the building of a hospital is dated ... from the period between 100 BCE and CE150." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital#Early_examples)

The same source lists examples of hospitals built even earlier by King Ashoka and by the royal house of Sri Lanka going back to the 4th century BC. "The first teaching hospital where students were authorized to practice methodically on patients under the supervision of physicians as part of their education, was the Academy of Gundishapur in the Persian Empire. One expert has argued that "to a very large extent, the credit for the whole hospital system must be given to Persia".

Even in the Christian world, "Among the earliest were those built by the physician Saint Sampson in Constantinople and by Basil, bishop of Caesarea in modern-day Turkey [not long after the Council of Nicea (325 AD)]. But in those two locations the "Church" was not the Roman Catholic Church, but the ancestors of the Orthodox Church, under Greek Patriarchs. (Most from the same Wiki article quoted above, which does seem to represent what is recorded elsewhere.)

Then there is the matter of "universities". There are claims (backed by facts) that , "As early as 700 B.C. there existed a giant University at Takshashila, located in the northwest region of Bharat (India)." Elsewhere there are people claiming that, "Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, is generally considered to be the oldest university in the world." There are other challenges to the claims of Bologna for primacy. "The University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco is thus recognized by the Guinness Book of World Records as the oldest degree-granting university in the world with its founding in 859 by woman called Fatima al-Fihri."

We must also grant some of the ideas which form the basis of the university in Plato's Academy, from which we take our phrase "academic" in ca. 387 BC.

I would also turn to Plato to dispute your claim that, "Atheism, ... provides no coherent worldview on anything." Indeed the whole Greaco-Latin philosophic endeavour is based on a set of ideas that cannot be described as "Theism." Some of the philosophers are explicit in their lack of belief in the divine. I think this includes Lucretius, but have not had the time or the energy to track down all the Classical philosophers. Try reading Cicero's "On the Gods", which gets very scathing about the gods of the classical tradition. Yet Aristotle - another atheist - formed a central part of the philosophical world-view of the Catholic Church from the Middle Ages until the Enlightenment.

If we are looking for "coherent" worldview, then there are candidates outside Theism, even outside of the standard Western tradition - Buddhism, a very ancient tradition is not based on the existence of one God. Confucianism does not even introduce metaphysics into his world-view based on an orderly hierarchical society of duties and responsibilities. If you want to add a "spiritual" dimension to the millennia-long Chinese tradition, then you will have to turn to Taoism which also lacks the concept of a One True God and gives only passing thought to gods of Chinese tradition which are, like the Greek ones, creatures of myth and metaphor.

You also claim that it is in Catholic nations that we find the origins of, "the rights of the individual to fair legal proceedings as developed in Spain to protect people unjustly accused." But the need to stop false accusation goes back at least as far as the Code of Hammurabi, which goes back to a date more than 1500 years before the time of Christ: "3. If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital offense charged, be put to death." You will find other examples of codes developed before or outside the remit of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Church undoubtedly did a lot of good things and advances in western civilisation. They also did quite a few bad ones. Exactly which is which we could argue at 'til the cows come home. But you should know that not everything that was achieved in the Christian era was done by those within the Church and that some of the achievements which you have listed are under dispute from those with roots elsewhere.

There are non-Catholic, non-Christian and even non-theist civilisations on the books which pre-date those instituted by the Catholic Church and had many of the great attributes which we regard as fundamental to the proper functioning of Civil Society. About exact dates for exact laws, institutions or persons I am not making claims. All I am trying to establish here is UNCERTAINTY about claims for "first achievements" and the nature and extent of the Catholic Church's role in the long march of Civilisation.

This will also be my last contribution to this debate as I have a life which I need to get back to - starting with the tax man.

Au revoir to all.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 01:26:39 GMT
P says:
Tom, you say, "The 'contraception' movement in the US was developed by Sanger to make sure fewer blacks were born. She had the same fine Darwinian eugenic instincts as Hitler and many of the fascists in England. "

Is the anti-contraceptive, anti-abortion movement in the US designed to make sure that more whites are born, to put off the evil day when they are no longer a majority there? Thus displaying the fine Darwinian eugenic ...
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Discussion in:  religion discussion forum
Participants:  19
Total posts:  93
Initial post:  6 Nov 2012
Latest post:  26 Nov 2012

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