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God Does Not Exist Because. . . (2)

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In reply to an earlier post on 20 Nov 2010 23:16:48 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 09:57:11 GMT
"please its never to late"

Why are you begging? Sounds as though Christianity's merits are so weak and unattractive on their own that the people promoting them have to beg others to join up.

I'll go back to preparing for Hanukkah now. :D Mmm, latkes. My potato kugel didn't turn out so well last time though. It ended up looking and tasting like cement. :(

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 09:58:37 GMT
What other options are there? God has been silent ever since his last and only publication (that was never submitted for peer review).

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 10:51:35 GMT
MarmiteMan says:
Not due to the Florida sun or humidity, I hope ...?

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 10:57:14 GMT
I don't live in Florida.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 10:58:20 GMT
I think it was cast out for plagiarism of previous works.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 10:59:47 GMT
MarmiteMan says:
Apologies, but ... thought you had recently moved (not to Florida, then?) ...

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 13:15:52 GMT
Drew,

Perhaps he has you on 'ignore' which means that he never sees your replies and is therefore free to decide that you have not replied. Don't you just live free will :D

Wayne

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 13:18:50 GMT
MM,

Are you saying that atheists have belief? 'cos every atheist I have conversed with try very hard to deny any form of belief.

Wayne

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 14:13:40 GMT
No, no. I lived in FL from 1997-1999. Recently moved (now) from Scotland to Shropshire. Before Scotland, I lived in Winnipeg.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2010 23:57:59 GMT
Dreamer says:
Sounds like my sisters cauliflour cheese last christmas. (Shudders with remembered horror) Thats the last time I let her near the kitchen at christmas.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 00:05:43 GMT
Last edited by the author on 22 Nov 2010 00:07:23 GMT
Drew Jones says:
A highly reasonable hypothesis. It would be uncharitable to suggest some don't even need to hit a button to have an ignore function running but I wouldn't be the first to offer such an idea.

You also raise a kind of Schrödinger's cat paradox, until a post is unhidden the question possibly remains neither answered or unanswered.

Posted on 22 Nov 2010 07:00:51 GMT
Of comments on scientists of names unknown telling us that God does not exist...... I would like to point out that most of the scientist of great renown such as Newton, Galileo, Einstein ad Infinitum, were all very religious men. "My God does not throw dice" etc....
Perhaps the Church's definition of God should be questioned, but not the existence of God, as we are here and therefore creation has happened. A rose by any other name....
If you keep asking God to demonstrate himself to you, he will.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 09:20:40 GMT
Pendragon says:
Paul

You said "You leave me no alternative but to ask Pendragon" - makes me sound like the headmaster called upon to dispense chastisement!

Anyway, on your question, what I said was "If by freedom you mean free will (not the same thing as freedom)", by which I was primarily seeking clarification of your use of the word freedom. It was intended as a semantic clarification, not a substantive point.

However, since you ask, freedom is not the same as free will. Ignoring other meanings of the word "freedom", in the present context it can be defined as "liberty". Free will has no other meanings, it is more specific and means "liberty to choose". As an example, living in England, I can choose to look at any accessible website anywhere in the world, and I have the freedom to do so. If I relocate to China, I may want to do that but cannot do so. My ability to exercise my free will is unchanged, but my freedom has been reduced.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 13:00:52 GMT
I must've pulled the recipe off the internet. There are better ones out there. I think, retrospectively, there were too many potatoes and not enough liquid (ie eggs). I am never grating that many potatoes by hand again (!!!) - wish list includes a small food processor. :-)

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 13:01:46 GMT
Dr HotFXMan says:
Fleabag,

You said: "Actually I follow the OU news quite closel.y"

The "OU" News? - Oxford University? Open University? Orthodox Union? Please be more specific.

Your attempt to draw a parallel between the existence of God and the existence of String Theory or Multiverses is spurious. The existence or otherwise of God entails no testable propositions or consequent observations - whereas the other two do - even if they are presently mathematical. Thus your point fails.

However, if you know a testable proposition or observation consequent upon the existence or non-existence of God, then I would be interested to know what it is.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 13:02:22 GMT
We almost named our male cat Schrodinger. That fell apart when realizing the necessity of screaming his name when he gets in trouble.

He is now called Spock. Live long and purr.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 13:03:27 GMT
If he's all-knowing, you should only need to ask him once, or not at all: should he not already know your desires without you needing to articulate them?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 13:29:53 GMT
G. Proctor says:
>>>Of comments on scientists of names unknown telling us that God does not exist......

Who said that? I'd love to know which scientists have managed to disprove the existence of a being with supernatural invisibility.

>>> I would like to point out that most of the scientist of great renown such as Newton, Galileo, Einstein ad Infinitum, were all very religious men.

Galileo was nearly killed by the church, and Einstein, apparently, did not believe in a personal God. And Newton was a complete dick, if that counts. :) The fact that these people were religious has nothing to do with their science.

>>>Perhaps the Church's definition of God should be questioned, but not the existence of God, as we are here and therefore creation has happened. A rose by any other name....

But since you can't agree on what that definition of God is, 'God' is in this case equivalent to 'that thing I don't know'. So why not say 'I don't know'?

>>>If you keep asking God to demonstrate himself to you, he will.

Why? You just implied that you're not sure what God is, yet you're now describing the popular version of the Christian God. Where did this new information come from?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 13:46:42 GMT
Last edited by the author on 23 Nov 2010 10:39:28 GMT
Pendragon

Thank you for a clear and helpful post. You and Clone are really saying the same thing, and from your understanding and use of the term freedom you have both made a good and clear distinction between freedom and free-will.

At the moment, while accepting what you both say, I still hesitate to accept that human freedom cannot ever be used in the same sense as human free-will. I will try to dig out some examples for you and see what you think.

By the way, if you have the "liberty to choose," as you seem to believe you have, and you define free-will as "the liberty to choose," does not that mean that you believe that you have free-will?

Posted on 22 Nov 2010 15:38:15 GMT
Last edited by the author on 23 Nov 2010 10:40:46 GMT
Pendragon

I have cut and pasted for you the Section on Freedom from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Sorry it is so long, but I did want to edit it. (Read as much or as little as you wish).

What do you think about its use of the word freedom?

PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST ......

SECTION ONE
MAN'S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT ......

CHAPTER ONE
THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON ......

ARTICLE 3
MAN'S FREEDOM

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author:
Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden: "What is this that you have done?"29 He asked Cain the same question.30 The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.31
An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.

1737 An effect can be tolerated without being willed by its agent; for instance, a mother's exhaustion from tending her sick child. A bad effect is not imputable if it was not willed either as an end or as a means of an action, e.g., a death a person incurs in aiding someone in danger. For a bad effect to be imputable it must be foreseeable and the agent must have the possibility of avoiding it, as in the case of manslaughter caused by a drunken driver.

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.32

II. HUMAN FREEDOM IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION

1739 Freedom and sin. Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.

1740 Threats to freedom. The exercise of freedom does not imply a right to say or do everything. It is false to maintain that man, "the subject of this freedom," is "an individual who is fully self-sufficient and whose finality is the satisfaction of his own interests in the enjoyment of earthly goods."33 Moreover, the economic, social, political, and cultural conditions that are needed for a just exercise of freedom are too often disregarded or violated. Such situations of blindness and injustice injure the moral life and involve the strong as well as the weak in the temptation to sin against charity. By deviating from the moral law man violates his own freedom, becomes imprisoned within himself, disrupts neighborly fellowship, and rebels against divine truth.

1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:
Almighty and merciful God,
in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will.38

IN BRIEF

1743 "God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him" (GS 17 # 1).

1744 Freedom is the power to act or not to act, and so to perform deliberate acts of one's own. Freedom attains perfection in its acts when directed toward God, the sovereign Good.

1745 Freedom characterizes properly human acts. It makes the human being responsible for acts of which he is the voluntary agent. His deliberate acts properly belong to him.

1746 The imputability or responsibility for an action can be diminished or nullified by ignorance, duress, fear, and other psychological or social factors.

1747 The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in religious and moral matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of man. But the exercise of freedom does not entail the putative right to say or do anything.

1748 "For freedom Christ has set us free" (Gal 5:1).
________________________________________
26 GS 17; Sir 15:14.
27 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 4, 4, 3: PG 7/1, 983.
28 Cf. Rom 6:17.
29 Gen 3:13.
30 Cf. Gen 4:10.
31 Cf. 2 Sam 12:7-15.
32 Cf. DH 2 # 7.
33 CDF, instruction, Libertatis conscientia 13.
34 Gal 5:1.
35 Cf. In 8:32.
36 2 Cor 17.
37 Rom 8:21.
38 Roman Missal, 32nd Sunday, Opening Prayer: Omnipotens et misericors Deus, universa nobis adversantia propitiatus exclude, ut, mente et corpore pariter expediti, quae tua sunt liberis mentibus exsequamur.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 16:42:42 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 17:39:52 GMT
Hi Proctor,
Scientists telling there is no God was prompted by an earlier post I saw.
Einstein made clear towards the end of his life that he was very much a Jew. A race, but also a religion. With regard to "Personal" The actual quote is " My God does play dice."
Also. " before God we are all equally wise and foolish"
His God was the laws of nature. As I said, It depends on your definition of God. We are here so creation happened.

Galileo was nearly killed by the "Church" The Church is not God. He never claimed God did not exist but that he Churches teaching were not accurate.

Newton " the Dick" famously united the HEAVENS and the EARTH.
The fact that their religion had nothing to do with their science. I agree. Or perhaps their science had nothing to do with their religion.
" God is equivalent to that thing I don't know." I think thats clearly understood. Do you know?

As for God to demonstrate himself. Nothing Christian intended.
If you keep asking, I am confident you will eventually understand me and what I mean.

I did not intentionally imply that I know what Gods is. I was simply saying that perhaps the Churches definition of God should be questioned but not the existence. The evidence is everywhere I look.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 17:45:47 GMT
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In reply to an earlier post on 22 Nov 2010 17:47:09 GMT
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